21: Ashley Mathews (aka Riley Reid) - The mogul and brains behind America's Sweetheart: Difference between revisions

== Transcript ==

[https://theportal.wiki/images/c/c1/Ep_21_art19.vtt raw file]

'''Ashley Mathews: [5:15]''' <span title="5:15">Thank you for having me.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [8:54]''' <span title="8:54">I would say so. I didn't think that at the time that I was but now kind of learning more of what it is expressed to be, I would consider myself an atheist. Yes.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [9:05]''' <span title="9:05">Interesting. Now, the way in which you sort of cropped up in my life a second time was that I started looking into the aftermath of something I had known nothing about, which was called Operation Choke Point.</span><span title="9:19">And this has been initiated under the Obama administration, if I understand it correctly, where the FDIC and perhaps the Justice Department came to realize that they could put a lot of pressure on the financial system not to do business with people in certain sectors of the economy or to make it very difficult for them to getting access to regular financial institutions. </span><span title="9:44">And I recall an article or an interview, maybe it was in paper, I can't remember where it was, where you were talking about the fact that you couldn't get normal credit and easy access to commercial banking. Despite the fact that you are running a very successful and profitable business as a businesswoman.</span>

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'''Eric Weinstein: [14:57]''' <span title="14:57">Well, that's one of the things that I'm interested in in trying to reopen, which is that during the 1950s 60s and early 70s, when obscenity was a much hotter topic, in particular because of the need to establish a standard by which something might be deemed obscene, and there were even people who said we should not have any concept of obscenity legally,</span><span title="15:21">it was very much on people's minds that obscenity and the erotic arts were part of free speech. So you had you know, novels like Lady Chatterley's lover or Tropic of Cancer that were deemed too racy to be you know, sold.</span><span title="15:44">So, you weren't even necessarily talking about films or pictures. Even text was considered too hot to handle. And for whatever reason, that branch of the free speech discussion has somewhat dropped out of most people's consciousness, do you find that as well?</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [24:38]''' <span title="24:38">And that you guys are in somewhat of a similar boat, but that because there's no- like, I mean, I would never encounter you in normal life, probably. Because our worlds are just very unlikely to collide.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [24:52]''' <span title="24:52">When it comes to- like I know- like right now I'm working on this documentary, and they're following myself as an adult actress, and they're also following a researcher who studies sex and</span><span title="25:04">she speaks about how she gets like death threats and things like that, for being this like, almost highly sexual woman, even though she's literally studying, like, how vaginal secretion happens or things like that. And I think that it is like, we have this lack of free speech and we have this like, I don't know if it's also the era of where everyone is just highly offended by everything as well.</span><span title="25:32">I would have thought that through with social media and all these things and even like music, the way that music has kind of like even become more hyper sexual and aggressive that our culture would be more accepting to these types of, you know, ways of life whereas rather than kind of see the opposite side of it.</span><span title="25:53">I think that like when it comes to being able to be free with what you can do and say in sex work and researchers, I'm not too familiar with the researchers. But I was definitely like-</span><span title="26:06">I thought of this book Bonk by Mary Roach when I heard about the research study of the researcher in the documentary where it talks about like, I think it was like in the 50s, or something like that, where they were all studying animals having sex with animals, because it was so taboo, and you were like a pervert.</span><span title="26:24">If you watched two humans have sex, even though that's the only way to actually study people having sex and to get real information- you're not going to get-</span><span title="26:33">you'll get information about monkeys if you're watching monkeys have sex, but it was like, interesting to me that it was so almost pornographic for them to even be able to watch people and study them even though that's how we're trying to understand biology and science.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [31:36]''' <span title="31:36">-normally, we might be making some jokes, and having some more fun, but we're trying to keep this as classy as possible. The floor is yours.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [31:46]''' <span title="31:46">I can even just say, like even the feeling and the difference of like how I'm working on this documentary right now, when I'm on set with that documentary, it is so different than when I'm typically on set and it's hard for my brains almost wrapped around it because it's very similar vibe.</span><span title="32:03">They're both sets, we have like, same kind of production crews and me, I would naturally change my clothing right here in the middle of the set, and all these things and not even think about, you know, the guy on the sound.</span><span title="32:17">He's doing his job. He's looking at the things because he doesn't care about me getting nude, because that's what he always- every day, there's a new girl and a guy getting nude.</span><span title="32:26">And when I was on the documentary, they were kind of like, Oh, no, like go to your dressing room and change, as if- and I didn't even think that I could be potentially offending them with my body and whatnot by just undressing right there because I was like, Oh, you want me to change so I'll just change right now. I'm like, totally comfortable with myself.</span><span title="32:47">And it didn't even cross my mind that like, oh, maybe this guy is looking at me inappropriately and he has like a wife or this or that or they don't want any set drama or anything like that. And so for me It's very bizarre to pull myself out of my world that is so normal for us to just be like, casually having sex, like when the cameras aren't rolling, to just maintain the energy maintain the flow, you want to make sure that the male talent has, you know, stays erect and everything like that.</span><span title="33:19">And so while they're changing lights and everything like that, it's so casual for sex to be going on. It's so casual for the male to male- there's even like a lot of male to male, you know, gay jokes within each other where, you know, they'll joke about like, you know, teasing each other off and like doing all these fun playful things. </span><span title="33:40">Whereas maybe in the regular work environment, you would never male to male be flirting with your, you know, coworkers, even in the slightest bit because 1) you don't want to become like, I don't know, you don't want all that- Some guys are so homophobic and whatnot.</span><span title="33:56">But in our industry, it's so casual for everyone to kind of have this open love for one another and talk about their bodies and their sexuality that when I was on this documentary set, it was so bizarrely uncomfortable for me as the sex worker to remove myself from being who I naturally am, which is like just comfortable within myself and my sexuality in my body and, and that I could be looked at as a piece of meat on their set.</span><span title="34:31">So they're like, these men aren't used to seeing women like this all the time. So you have to make sure that you're not subjecting yourself in this way or making them uncomfortable or whatnot. And to me, I think that like, if they were around that more if people were just comfortable with themselves and comfortable with their bodies, </span><span title="34:49">then it naturally would be normal and the same and the guy would be able to adjust the lights without staring at the girl the whole time, you know, not that these guys were, but I guess potentially, maybe they would. But they weren't even really given the opportunity.</span><span title="35:05">And, and for us, I think that there's this casualty in, or we're just so casual with one another that they're-The hypersexual that goes on set is just another playful, casual normal conversation. </span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [38:26]''' <span title="38:26">Yes, yes, exactly. And so I find even for myself that it has almost taken an opposite turn where I've now desire that less than less and when I first started that was one of my favorite things was the viewers the Voyeur aspect of there being multiple people in the room and enjoying the fact that there is a guy with a boom stick holding it up who's you know, trying to not look but definitely, obviously, wants to.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [38:55]''' <span title="38:55">Got it. Do you see any way in which... Are the rest of us in society moving closer towards pornography with, let's say, self sexualization on Instagram, where you're sort of part of a mildly erotic feedback loop if you're a young woman and you notice, what, suddenly, a photo you've taken has, you know, 10 times the number of likes on it.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [41:45]''' <span title="41:45">No. Sometimes I wonder if it has to do with the fact that people enjoy this taboo sense of things where it's almost like, if it's unspoken, then it's more enjoyable. If it's kind of subliminal, it's almost like it's sneaking its way into yourself and then if it is kind of like, less open, then maybe they would have- if it wasn't- </span><span title="42:12">if it was direct, then maybe they would have certain other guidelines that they would have to follow. If this perfume commercial was obviously transparent with the fact that they are using sexuality to sell their perfume then maybe in the real world, the civilian world, they'd be like, you can't do that that's inappropriate! Our children see these commercials it's on aired on television at regular waking hours. </span><span title="42:38">And I think that probably has something to do with the part of it where if it is not- if it is subliminal, and it's not direct, then it could be more acceptable to the human eye and it could be something that, </span><span title="42:52">where people are like, Well, no, it's a lingerie company. That's, like, classy. I'm pretty even though it's obviously selling sexuality at the same time,</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [43:02]''' <span title="43:02">I think the issue of deniability- I mean, you're talking- I should say, this is the first day we've ever met. We've talked on the phone a bunch of times. One of the people I've sort of pointed you towards is this evolutionary theorist, Bob Trevor's, and he wrote this book- </span><span title="43:19">I mean, it's really, you know, one of the most prominent theorists of our time, and he wrote this book called The Folly Of Fools, that talks about the evolutionary basis of self deception as the precursor to being able to manipulate others. </span><span title="43:35">And if you think about, for example, just I had Bret Easton Ellis in the studio, wrote American Psycho and Less Than Zero. We were talking about the issue of seduction, and he said that he wants to be seduced all the time. He doesn't want everything to be explicit. He doesn't want everything, you know, as a mutually agreed upon decision. </span><span title="43:57">That in part, what is wonderful and delicious to him about life has to do with seduction, and that seduction involves manipulation. But in a world where I think many more people are colliding without a common understanding of each other, not coming from the same backgrounds, there's really an increased propensity for two humans to get these signals wildly wrong. </span><span title="44:24">It's probably always been there, but maybe there's an increased ability. So weirdly, the way I see it, the civilian world has always been based on sort of self deception. And then there have been both the problems that come from that and the really much more exciting aspects that come from that when it works. Probably there's an extra magic to it. </span><span title="44:50">Any thoughts on that between- like, what translates to Mystique? Do you see that when you're looking at your civilian friends that there kind of saying, well, I wonder if he likes me, I got a message. I don't know what I don't know how to interpret it.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [46:13]''' <span title="46:13">Yeah, it is! And I often find myself incapable of catering to the general public. I don't know how to do these own kind of mind games on myself. But it is interesting or I do find that most common people do enjoy this type of seduction and whatnot.</span><span title="46:34">They don't want things to be so blunt and almost easy to an extent there has to be some sort of work involved and trickery. I believe that it is like a very common theme at least even in like my dating world, it is.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [46:52]''' <span title="46:52">So one of the things that I thought was really terrific that I first heard from you was some of your ideas is about how to make sure that if people are considering entering the erotic arts professionally, that they're making good decisions.</span><span title="47:10">You feel that very clearly, this has been a great decision for you. It's worked out financially at a great level, you've been in the business for a long time haven't been chewed up. You seem to have an incredibly positive attitude. </span><span title="47:22">But what I was talking to you about was, well, you know, how uncommon is that? You're obviously in a very unusual position. And you came up with this idea of having like a virtual reality simulator of what it would be like to enter the business. Can you say more about that?</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [50:37]''' <span title="50:37">Yeah, she she had committed suicide. from what I gather some internet bullying where she did not partake in a sex scene with a crossover star, which is a star who performs both in male to male scenes and male to female scenes. </span><span title="50:56">And I'm sure she struggled with other mental Illness issues and things like of that sort. And I think that if we were able to put these adolescents in or these 18 year olds or these people- Stars in the industry, they would be able to get the experience of the humiliation, the tweets and the social media hate that you're gonna get, the ongoing you know, struggle with dating...</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [51:26]''' <span title="51:26">Ashley, how do you do it? I mean, I've seen some of what comes back at you. It's absolutely brutal!</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [58:28]''' <span title="58:28">And I have done neither of those.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [58:31]''' <span title="58:31">So this is the thing, which is like you really are. You don't, you're very disagreeable. You don't take all of the standard advice, and somehow it's been working out for you, you know, and, like, let me be a little bit more forthcoming. </span><span title="58:46">I don't think I'm entirely comfortable with what it is that you do for a living. But I've tried to get over that. Because you know, you're just been such a genuine and wonderful person to talk to about all of these things. So, in part, you're extremely disarming, you get people to be comfortable with the fact that they do have a sexual response to you. </span><span title="59:09">And you get people to accept you on your own terms. And you've risen to the top without any, you know, seemingly any consequence to just being yourself. How did you figure that out? And nobody else did in your area?</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:02:41]''' <span title="1:02:41">100%. Yeah, I think that since very young age, I had always been a very hypersexual person, and I never necessarily had like a role model. And I agree, I wouldn't say that I am a traditional type of role model. </span><span title="1:02:56">Although I would like to be - to some extent - I would like to think that the more average girl could admire me and look up to me for other aspects and whatnot. And because- Like I said, I have a lot of girls who know who I am from like podcasts and stuff, they had no idea of my work or anything like that. And they just admire me for the way I speak and my opinions on things,</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:03:23]''' <span title="1:03:23">It's very hard for me to integrate. You know, when I've spoken to you on the phone before you say, you know, it's been great talking to you, but unfortunately, I have to get back to the set. And I have this like, it's like somebody telling me I have to go fight the Battle of Stalingrad some terrible, crazy things about that, but you're like, Oh, no, I love my work. It's just very funny to see my own discomfort and prudishness proper.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:07:28]''' <span title="1:07:28">Do you find that there's some sort of similarity between that deviation from the civilian world or the default world that is Burning Man and the porn set?</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:07:37]''' <span title="1:07:37">I would say 100%. Like, a lot of my friends that I work with- Or a lot of my friends. I get them to end up working for me. So I've got some friends who are like mainstream editors and I somehow managed to get them to start editing my adult videos and I have one that I ended up taking to Burning Man with me who had such a- </span><span title="1:08:03">He recently told me how he's had such an epiphany within himself to be able to be so comfortable with his own body and comfortable with other people about other people's bodies by simply editing my videos, he's not on set, he's not partaking in any of the activities or anything like that. </span><span title="1:08:21">But because he's just been editing my videos, he's found that he's able to have a different relationship with nudity and sex, and all of these things whereas in his regular world previously to meeting me, he was more I guess, vanilla or follow the standards of the civil civilian type people where it was like, no nudity, </span><span title="1:08:43">you will never see him naked, unless you are his girlfriend or partner at the time and now he's in a totally different place where he he said himself he's like, by the end of Burning Man, I will be walking around naked, too. </span><span title="1:08:56">And I think it's like this of ability within himself where he's now he's gotten to be able to put himself in th perspective in the shoes of us on set. </span><span title="1:09:09">He sees, he sees the delay of when before cameras cut, he sees like, you know, they start action and there's moments of us getting comfortable with each other. There's moments of us cutting and just kind of like being natural and ourselves. We're like taking a water break and everything like that. </span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:09:36]''' <span title="1:09:36">So it seems to me that there's definitely something to learn from this weird pornographic universe. On the other hand, I can't see that these lessons will ever fully translate.</span><span title="1:09:45">So for example, you remember this horrible number at the Oscars where I forget who it was, somebody was singing the song I saw your boobs, it was going through all of the actresses who'd appeared topless. And the idea being, that, Well, if I've seen your boobs, then in some sense, I've got something on you. </span><span title="1:10:05">And I thought about John Lennon and Yoko Ono doing this album called, I think Two Virgins. And they're appearing naked on the album. </span><span title="1:10:16">So let's get it over with. So now you've all seen us and lets you now you don't have any power over us anymore because it's done. </span><span title="1:10:26">Do you think that there's something like that, that at some level, there's this revelation that you have your privacy up until a certain point and then when you've given up your privacy, in exchange, somehow you get a comfort with self?</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:10:41]''' <span title="1:10:41">Yes. 100% I think there was a study done that showed that women who perform in adult entertainment or as a sex worker, have higher levels of confidence within themselves, then the average woman and I think 100% that there's something about putting yourself out there to be so vulnerable, kind of forces you to kind of have to not care what other people think or say. </span><span title="1:11:07">And I think that there's also, as much as you get these negative statements, there's still so much glorification in that there's still so many people who are applauding you for doing what you do. </span><span title="1:11:19">Like, I look like a normal girl, an average girl who's probably going to college or has some sort of basic job and when I go to the store and target I'm a very social person, I make small talk with anyone. And I often will like I just start conversations with like, maybe this random sixty year old lady </span><span title="1:11:38">and we're kind of like, you know, talking lollygagging and she asks me Oh, like, what are you a model? What do you do? And I tell her Well, I'm actually like one of the number one porn stars in the world and a lot of times they look at me, they like size me up and down and they're like, You?, like, you don't have big silicone boobs. You don't have all this injection in your face. Like, You? And I'm like, I explain to them-</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:13:21]''' <span title="1:13:21">And she was just having the time of her life cackling about it. And we were like, laughing and making rude jokes. And I thought about the way in which maybe the part of the problem is that men really need women in general in the civilian world to be much more simple in terms of their sexuality,</span><span title="1:13:41">that you want to imagine your mother and your grandmother, typically as somehow bringing forth life with, you know, not multiple lovers and not having much of a history and that somehow, </span><span title="1:13:56">I wonder whether it's male needs for an idealized concept of women that make this pressure lifelong and that postmenopausally many women just say, Well, what did I do? I gave up so much of myself.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:14:11]''' <span title="1:14:11">Yeah, I agree. I do think that a lot of men want these types of desires. And I don't know if it's biology or what it is sometimes I don't even think that necessarily matters. It's probably like, environmental. </span><span title="1:14:25">But I know personally, when I talk to a lot of guys that are my friends. They're like, I love you, and I adore you, but I couldn't date you.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:18:41]''' <span title="1:18:41">I've heard of it. I did not actually see it. </span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:18:43]''' <span title="1:18:43">Okay. You know, like, it's one thing to get a human to Mars, but it's much more difficult to imagine how we're going to get a human back. So maybe it's easy to go one way. I think of Planet Porn is like Mars.</span><span title="1:18:55">That very often, there's a portal into something where you have a lot more to learn. That's part of the reason that, you know, I was eager to have you on the program. But it's not clear that there's a return ticket.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:19:07]''' <span title="1:19:07">Oh, I agree. 100% I think that is a very, that's why one thing I was saying earlier is like, is the seal of approval that I become a scientist? </span><span title="1:19:17">You know, like, what, what do I have to do to become acceptable in the public's eye? Like, do I write an amazing film? A screenplay?, that now is like, Wow, she's more than an adult actor.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:24:12]''' <span title="1:24:12">Oh, yeah. </span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:24:12]''' <span title="1:24:12">Talk to me about that.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:25:29]''' <span title="1:25:29">You know, that's similar for modeling.</span><span title="1:25:31">If we took the top 10 - suppose that supermodel - I don't love the term porn star and supermodel because they get used like but let's just have fun. </span><span title="1:25:42">If you take the top 10 supermodels, male and female, my understanding is that the pay scale is 10 cents on the dollar for the men relative to the females because there is this super premium. </span><span title="1:25:56">I mean in some weird way. The females are the males of the human species. Like peacocks: The adorned gender, or sex is the males. And the festoon gender in humans is much more the females. </span><span title="1:26:13">And so there's this very bizarre reversal, that there really is a wage gap in this one area. And it totally favors the females. Is that fair? How should we think about this? Given that we've learned to think about it in reverse, and you're in one of the few industries where it totally goes the other way?</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:26:31]''' <span title="1:26:31">Yeah, I mean, I like to think of gender equality, myself personally. So I don't find it fair, in my personal opinion, because, like I said, even in the sense of like, showcasing the male is not, he's almost more objectified and they're still dealing with the same struggles that the females are. Dating, I'm sure, like when it comes to dating, I'm sure the male struggles just as much as the female actress.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:27:02]''' <span title="1:27:02">I bet it's not quite as intense.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:27:36]''' <span title="1:27:36">I guess I hadn't thought as much about- I mean, obviously there's a lot of dating within the industry because people are at least sensitized to what the-</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:27:53]''' <span title="1:27:53">Yeah, sometimes I think it's worse because I think that guys'll almost be more accepting than the the women.</span><span title="1:28:01">But I mean, I'm not really sure. But the I think I know more women who date out of the industry than men. I don't really know many men whose partner is not within the industry.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:28:15]''' <span title="1:28:15">Let me ask you another one. You did your first transexual sex scene recently. My guess is is that you were warned that this could have negative consequences on your career you elected to do it. Obviously, the topic is very hot. And you probably brought a large portion of a heteronormative audience through something they weren't prepared to deal with. How did that go? And just keep it so that we can have the broadest audience possible, but just- I'm curious. It's a political act.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:33:14]''' <span title="1:33:14">I mean you could also be facing the fact that you will get socially critiqued yourself.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:33:18]''' <span title="1:33:18">Well there is that. I think I think that I'm more comfortable defending very- </span><span title="1:33:24">well here's something that I I'm gonna get socially critiqued for and and when we talked about it on the phone that I think I feel slightly more comfortable with. </span><span title="1:33:34">The shunning of Louis C. K. was something that I thought the world probably got weirdly wrong and that the porn world was strangely silent. </span><span title="1:33:48">So my understanding was that he was requesting to disrobe and to bring himself to orgasm in the presence of fully clothed females. And when I heard that, and I heard that this was his desire to exert power. I thought, I wonder if that's true. Or I wonder if this is just some sort of well known kink. </span><span title="1:34:11">And it turns out that there was a category which I asked you to look into. And not only does this kink exist, it seems to be a fairly large kink. And it's coupled to some other kink called female domination. How does that how do I pronounce that in the industry?</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:37:59]''' <span title="1:37:59">That's Moro Islamic Liberation Front if you're following at home.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:38:04]''' <span title="1:38:04">Not in my world. But I think that you know, even for me personally, I've learned to cater my brand around the type cast that I have. Whereas if I was maybe a more, all-tattooed type female, my brand would have learned to adapt to the audience around myself. So my my audience is a specific type of brand.</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:39:12]''' <span title="1:39:12">Well, we've learned learned there are definitely seasons of even from the type of adult films that are consumed to the colors that the performers are wearing. So there's like, algorithms that they could, you know, or data that they could track where they know like, </span><span title="1:39:29">holiday time you know, around now it's like October, it'll be October in a few days but like, October to I think like February is the niche of incest porn is huge. And I think that largely has to do with the holidays or people spend a lot of time with their families.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:39:46]''' <span title="1:39:46">Is incest porn, actually trying to depict straight up incest, which is I find incredibly disturbing, or is it really incest adjacent where it's trying to depict sort step-like relationships gone awry,</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:41:31]''' <span title="1:41:31">And because I do look like a very young adult person. And I play a young person in my films. And so I don't necessarily feel comfortable constantly playing a, yes, prepub- you know, teen, a little teeny bopper?</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:41:47]''' <span title="1:41:47">Well, and I think this is part of, you know, getting back to the issue of the obscenity decisions. Well, I usually come down on the side of free speech. </span><span title="1:41:55">I do think it's worth making the argument against, which is where we arenow there was a five four decision one of the justices I believe in the in the minority wrote saying that there should be no concept of obscenity, that it should all be covered. </span><span title="1:42:09">But because arousal takes place not in the prefrontal cortex where we're actually doing our thinking, but it's taking place in the autonomic nervous system, which we have very little control over, we sort of only have supervisory control. </span><span title="1:42:25">It makes sense at some level that there are certain ideas that you don't wish to excite. </span><span title="1:42:29">And this comes across not just in sexuality, like for example, the concept of fighting words is a defense, which is that if somebody riles you up and is trying to get your goat, and you and you smash them in the face, </span><span title="1:42:43">there might that might be a mitigating circumstance where it wouldn't simply be considered assault because the person's use of language was trying to elicit passion that would likely end in violence.</span><span title="1:42:57">And of course, you know, crimes of passion Which does have to do with sexuality that you know, sexual jealousy is thought to be capable of arousing us to violence. </span><span title="1:43:10">Is there an argument to be made that if the speech or the art is intended to access the parts of our brain that are most primitive and least under control, that maybe that shouldn't be considered speech at all?</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:43:24]''' <span title="1:43:24">I'm not sure because sometimes I wonder if these type of acts or videos or whatnot are helpful to viewers like I'm not sure if it's like- </span><span title="1:43:36">Instead of the person going out and performing these acts on a fellow person, they're able to view it on screen and because they're-</span>

'''Ashley Mathews: [1:45:55]''' <span title="1:45:55">For me, at least myself.</span>

'''Eric Weinstein: [1:45:56]''' <span title="1:45:56">Right.</span><span title="1:45:59">Listen, I've really enjoyed this. I have one final question. But I think that if we don't figure out, you know, I have this, I'm gonna get a little abstract. </span><span title="1:46:14">But I have a theory, which is that the invisible world is first discovered by the visible world's failure to close that is, for example, you learn about a, let's say dark matter in the universe, not because you can see it, you can't it doesn't have photons bouncing off of it, but it bends the light around it. </span><span title="1:46:36">And so you can see that there must be something there because all the visible stuff is behaving strangely. And in some sense, the erotic entertainment complex is like dark matter in our society. It's this enormous, influential thing. </span><span title="1:46:51">One of the things that was very strange was watching how many people literally would say Who is Riley Reid?, and their faces lighting up with delight. That- They had- </span><span title="1:47:04">I mean, they just weren't aware that they were lying. So clearly, this is shaping our society, it's affecting who we are, it's affecting our sexuality, we're not really able to talk about it, </span><span title="1:47:16">I feel like I'm taking a big risk, which may be in my mind, maybe not. By having you on the program. I think that for the most part, the discussion has been exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have with you. So thank you so much for being here. </span><span title="1:47:29">But like, my final question, really is, what is it that the pornographic world can tell us in the civilian world about ourselves, watching all of these tensions between men and women? And what would be the best way of being in dialogue if you do understand why it's so hard to mix these two worlds because of their two shifts in basic norms.</span>