21: Ashley Mathews (aka Riley Reid) - The mogul and brains behind America's Sweetheart: Difference between revisions

00:05

'''Eric:''' Hello, you found the portal. I'm your host, Eric Weinstein. I'm here in studio with a special guest today, Ashley Matthews. Ashley, thanks for coming by The Portal.  

00:06

'''Ashley:''' I, to be honest, wanted there to be more conversation about like all the things, I mean, Sam Harris talks about it all, like the free will and this and the, that type of thing. But I think it was a lot of politic type things. Kind of Ben Shapiro and him kind of talking a lot back and forth. I didn't really get to hear much from you yet.

00:08

'''Eric:''' Are you— would you self-describe as an atheist, if that's an appropriate question?

00:10

'''Ashley:''' Yeah. There was a lot of adult actresses and directors and whatnot. People who have had their accounts shut down in banking institutions and things like that. I have had simple things where like email servers where you can kind of like send blast emails to your subscribers and whatnot kind of reject me in being able to be able to use them. Like MailChimp was one of the programs where I wasn't able to use it. And there's like many, many more. When I was like building my website, I was trying to like build my website from kind of like third parties, not trying to follow the standard adult website brands, because I felt like they took a large percentage of our money. So I was like, what other avenues can I attract that can work with me? And I was searching for months and months to find someone to like a simple to hold my bandwidth and whatnot. And it was really difficult. And I ended up having to speak to like specific owners and reach out directly to be able to be like, listen, this is who I am. This is what I want. Would you be willing to work with me? And now through that I've, I work with certain companies that where I'm like one of their biggest clients. And I think they work with a lot of sports networking and this and that. And still my adult website is there. I'm like their number one client. And so I feel very fortunate that they would take me on. But it took a lot of research and a lot of emails being sent out to people to be able to be like, listen, I am not a criminal. I'm not a bad guy. Like, you know, I understand that there are things that make the adult industry complicated because they have to make sure people are 18 and older and they don't want to be, you know, giving access to people who are not of the age. And how do you find that they are 18 and all of the written regulations? So I understand that there are those kinds of rules that take place that make it a little bit more tricky.

00:12

'''Eric:''' Those are the parts that you accept, that is, I mean, if I refer to you as a commercial sex worker, you're comfortable with the designation?

00:14

'''Eric:'''  Well, that's one of the things that I'm interested in trying to reopen, which is that during the 1950s, sixties and early seventies, when obscenity was a much hotter topic, in particular because of the need to establish a standard by which something might be deemed obscene, and there were even people who said we should not have any concept of obscenity legally. It was very much on people's minds that obscenity and the erotic arts were part of free speech. So you had, you know, novels like Lady Chatterley's Lover or Tropic of Cancer that were deemed too racy to be, you know, sold. So you weren't even necessarily talking about films or, or pictures, even text was considered too hot to handle, and for whatever reason, that branch of the free speech discussion has somewhat dropped out of most people's consciousness. Do you find that as well?

00:17

'''Ashley:'''  Yeah, yeah, I'd say so.

00:22

'''Ashley:''' Oh yeah.

00:23

'''Eric:''' Well I’m claiming that even the biologists are now running afoul of concepts like hate speech. For example, what if you start talking about a study of trans issues, and you discover that trans is a giant umbrella category where some parts of trans are disorders, some parts of trans is just nature doing what nature is somehow going to do. And somebody says, well, wait a minute, that's, that's completely illegitimate because you're mis-gendering people. I don't think that biology is a way to hide out anymore. I think that in fact the biologists and the pornographers are weirdly and quite unexpectedly, somewhat in the same boat now that we have a very potent political strain that's trying to regulate what can be said and that you guys are in somewhat of a similar boat. But that because there's no, like, I mean I would never encounter you in normal life, probably, because our worlds are just very unlikely to collide.

00:24

'''Ashley:''' When it comes to like I, I know like right now I'm working on this documentary and they're following myself as an adult actress and they're also following a researcher who studies sex, and she speaks about how she gets like death threats and things like that for being this like almost highly sexual woman even though she's literally studying like how vaginal secretion happens or things like that. And I think that it is like we have this lack of free speech and we have this like, I don't know if it's also the era of where everyone is just highly offended by everything as well. I would have thought that through with social media and all of these things and even like music, the way that music has kind of like even become more hypersexual and aggressive, that our culture would be more accepting to these types of, you know, ways of life. Whereas rather than kind of see the opposite side of it, I, I think that like when it comes to being able to be free with what you can do and say in sex work and researchers, I'm not too familiar with the researchers, but I was definitely like, I thought of this book Bunk by Mary Roach when I heard about the research study of this, the researcher in the documentary where it talks about like, I think it was like in the 50s or something like that where they were all studying animals, having sex with animals because it was so taboo and you were like a pervert if you watched two humans have sex, even though that's the only way to actually study people having sex and to get real information. You're not going to get, you'll get information about monkeys if you're watching monkeys have sex. But it was like interesting to me that it was so almost pornographic for them to even be able to watch people and study them. Even though that's how we're trying to understand biology and science.

00:26

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00:27

'''Eric:''' I have to admit that I have a couple of odd theories about this and I was curious how you might find them. One of which is that, in some sense, the normal world, which I understand you call the “civilian world”, is almost hypocritical and in denial by design. That is, we aren't supposed to have an accurate picture of human sexuality, because our society is based on what I call load bearing fictions, that people are supposed to present as relatively asexual. Their default assumption that they go around with is that they are not sexual beings. And you're supposed to hide this aspect. And then there are contradictory expectations. So for example, you might be expected to wear cosmetics in a workplace environment as a sign of professionalism, but the cosmetics in fact may be sexualizing, but then you're not supposed to admit that the cosmetics may in fact be sexualizing.  So in some sense the civilian world is a mess by design because we're not supposed to see ourselves accurately, and the world of sex workers is bizarrely a truth telling world, a world in which people are far more honest. And there's another one of these, which I think is the community of evolutionary theorists. And, believe me, you can’t invite those guys to parties either because they'll tell you things that the civilian world does not want to hear. What do you think about the idea that, is it possible that commercial workers are just much more honest and undistorted around issues of sexuality, and that, in fact, this is why they have to be excluded?

00:29

'''Ashley:'''  I would say so. I, I believe one time when we spoke previously you mentioned to me, I could be quoting you wrong, but the real estate effect or something like that, where it was like the woman can sell you potentially a not a suitable home because of her sex appeal and where she is dressed in a nice suit. Maybe there's a little cleavage showing, she has the makeup done, and you, as a general person is kind of, you know, you're, you're in a daze because you, you see this woman almost before you see the household. And I think that with adult entertainers we kind of like are always so sexually driven and sex is everywhere. It's our whole lives. I feel like I even personally experienced less sexual tension when I'm on set because we are always naked. They are so used to seeing naked women that it's not even like, it's not even a statement or a question or anything like that.

00:30

'''Eric:'''  Well, let's, let's dig into how bizarre your workplace is because very often I hear about sexuality in the workplace and I think, well, what happens when you take something like modeling or going even further commercial sex work on the set of a movie. Take us through what you think some of the major differences might be between your workplace and a typical office. But again, I should just tell the audience, I have asked Ashley to try to keep this as much above the neck as possible so that we can have the broadest possible audience. And so normally we might be making some jokes and having some more fun, but we're trying to keep this as classy as possible.

00:31

'''Ashley:'''  I can even just say like even the feeling and the difference of like how I'm working on this documentary right now, when I'm onset with that documentary, it is so different than when I'm typically onset. And it's hard for my brain to almost wrap around it because it's very similar vibe. They're both sets. We have like same kind of production crews and me, I would naturally change my clothing right here in the middle of the set and all of these things, and not even think about, you know, the guy on the sound, he's doing his job, he's looking at the things, cause he doesn't care about me getting nude because that's what he always, every day there's a new girl and a guy getting nude. And when I was on the documentary they were kind of like, Oh no, like, go to your dressing room and change. And as if, and I didn't even think that I could be potentially offending them with my body and whatnot by just undressing, dressing right there. Cause I was like, Oh you want me to change so I'll, I'll just change right now. I'm like totally comfortable with myself. And it didn't even cross my mind that like, Oh maybe this guy is looking at me inappropriately and he has like a wife or this or that or they don't want any set drama or anything like that. And so for me it's very bizarre to pull myself out of my world that is so normal for us to just be like casually having sex, like when the cameras aren't rolling to just maintain the energy, maintain the flow you, we want to make sure the male talent, how you know, stays erect and everything like that. And so while they're changing lights and everything like that, it's so casual for sex to be going on.  It's so casual for the male to male– there’s even like a lot of male to male, you know, gay jokes within each other where you know, they'll, they'll joke about like, you know, teasing each other off and like doing all of these fun, playful things. Whereas maybe in the regular work environment you would never male to male be flirting with your, you know, coworkers even in the slightest bit because one, you don't want to become like, I dunno, you don't want all of that. Some guys are so homophobic and whatnot, but in our industry it's so casual for everyone to kind of have this open love for one another and talk about their bodies and their sexuality, that, when I was on this documentary set, it was so bizarrely uncomfortable for me as the sex worker to remove myself from being who I naturally am, which is like just comfortable within myself and my sexuality and my body and that I could be looked at as a piece of meat on their set. So they're like, these men aren't used to seeing women like this all the time. So you have to make sure that you're not subjecting yourself in this way or making them uncomfortable or whatnot. And to me, I think that like if they were around that more, if people were just comfortable with themselves and comfortable with their bodies, then it naturally would be normal and the same, and the guy would be able to adjust the lights without staring at the girl the whole time. You know, not that these guys were, but I guess potentially maybe they would, but they weren't even really given the opportunity. And for us, I think we're just so casual with one another that there, the hypersexualness that goes on on set is just, it's just another playful, casual, normal conversation. Yeah.

00:35

'''Eric:''' So you believe, I mean, not to put words in your mouth, but I'm curious, you believe that in your workplace, bizarrely, and quite unexpectedly, maybe issues of harassment, tension, unwanted sexuality, are actually decreased?

00:36

'''Eric:''' You know, there was a story and I wish I could source it, because I've referenced it a few times, but years ago there was a naked musical called Oh, Calcutta. And I remember hearing a story that somebody had found that after being on stage naked in front of an audience night after night, because this was a relatively successful musical, that the performers could not go back to normal life because they had become habituated to the excitement of being viewed by like hundreds, if not thousands of people. And so, you know, one possibility is that in your world there is a permanent or semi-permanent brain shift that comes from experiencing a level of arousal and familiarity that the rest of us will never, ever experience.

00:37

'''Ashley:''' I would say so to some extent, but even from me personally to some extent, I feel like even quite the opposite has happened where now I like favor and desire more the more intimate one-on-one private sex life experience where it feels more emotionally involved. And I think that's also because I'm often working with people that maybe I don't know them very well or things like that. And there is always other people around, so the level of being able to drop your guard always in completely is very rare because there is a camera involved and we're creating a product in the end. And as much as like I can be enjoying myself, I still am put into literal positions that I can't always be enjoying myself because it's opening up for a camera or things like that.

00:38

'''Eric:''' Right, well, and you're a professional after all.

00:39

'''Ashley:''' I would say social media has a huge part into doing and kind of almost making somewhat hyper-sexualized in yourself, more casual. And I think a lot of it is this desire of engagement as well as like people becoming an Instagram model or influencer so that they sell products. I know I recently listened to like a Chris D’Elia podcast where he was joking about, yes, convenience.  

00:56

'''Ashley:''' Oh, of course. Yeah. I think that like a part of that simulation I was speaking about would be about body image because there are so many young women that I've met who, like one particular model, I won't say her name, but she said that her, she had so many fans and I don't even know what, how so many are, but she had so many fans who told her that her breasts were like pointed in different directions, that she had two breast augmentations. And I could imagine that the people who complimented her greatly outweighed those who didn't. But people sit in, they think about these negative comments and it affects them greatly to the point to where they will change their body. I've, I know girls who have had complaints about their nose or their this or their that and they very openly go on their Instagram and they talk about, well, you guys complain about this on my body. So I fixed it. And, and it's very sad to me that these people who aren't mentally strong enough put themselves out there and allow the feedback from some Joe Schmoe wherever he is saying these hurtful things towards the women or and men. And it affects them greatly to the fact to where they actually will pursue action and will change their body and put silicone breasts in them, which can be very dangerous and it can be life threatening. You put yourself under this anaesthesia, which is already a risk, as well as the risk of the poisoning of the silicone. And it's really like I know quite a few girls who gotten the silicone and then have gotten it removed later. I know a girl who has gotten her her butt done and then removed afterwards and these are very extreme life threatening surgeries to put yourself through over the simple fact of you think your audience will like you more. And to me it's obscene where I've not I, when I first started the industry, I had, my first agent told me if I wanted to be a big star, I would have to dye my hair blonde and get a boob job. And I have done neither of them.

1:04

'''Eric:''' Well, this is the thing. I think that there's a lot of it that's not personal. When it comes to the trepidation it has to do with, I have no plan for how we are going to negotiate all of the issues that come up because in my world we're all wildly sexually hypocritical and that's normal. That's, that's the way the civilian world has always been. And presumably it's likely to be that for the foreseeable future. Whereas I see you as the sort of dangerous truth telling machine, experimenting with things that you know, that are unimaginable. Now you just went to Burning Man, and Burning Man is a very odd thing in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada because for one week, somehow the normal rules are suspended. How do you find this sort of, I didn't find it. I went once, I didn't find it incredibly hot. There was a lot of nakedness and there was a lot of play, but it wasn't a wildly erotic experience in my understanding. Did you find it otherwise?

01:15

'''Eric:''' It's even worse than that. You wanna get into it? I believe the idea is that if the head of the pride changes and there's a new line at the head, not only will he kill the young offspring of his predecessor, but that, horribly, the female lions response to this is to go into estrus, to become a receptive and aroused by the killing of their young. Right? Like, no, I mean, nature is just so busy. It's so crazy, right? And, and we can't really, except this in part. And so my belief is, is that a lot of what you're seeing is the evolutionary program that says, if I know this person to be so aroused, it's not their personality, their looks, their this, their that. One, they've got a tremendous amount of sexual knowledge. So they're going to know exactly where I am on the totem pole of sexuality, which is terrifying. I think there's another aspect that has to do with how do I know this person isn't going to pick up and take off with somebody else because they've been, they've had their norms adjusted and there's another one that says, how do I know that any child will be mine, but more than anything, my guess is how do I know that I won't be mercilessly teased? Because everyone will say, Hey, I saw your girlfriend naked. I saw her doing this, I saw her doing that. And so the assault on the male ego and you know, just to be honest about it, I think almost none of us are secure enough to deal with it.

01:17

'''Ashley:''' Oh yeah. I know that every guy that I've dated publicly faces a large amount of sliding in the DMs of very aggressive, you know, harassment. And and I'm sure that even after our breakup, they are still dealing with the harassment because we were at one time a public image together and I would see some of the comments and they are absolutely brutal and terrible. And it's even actually one of the reasons why I'm terrified to have children because I think that I'm being the best mother possible by not having children because I think that the life that they could live could be full of suffering, whereas they'll be shamed their entire life possibly. Whereas, you know, that same statement where, how do you know that's your real dad? I've seen your mom take on many partners, you know, and like all of these kinds of very hurtful, terrible things and—

01:18

'''Ashley:''' It sounds right. Is that the one with—  

01:19

'''Ashley:''' Oh, I agree. 100% I think that it is a very, that's what I, one thing I was saying earlier is like is the seal of approval that I become a scientist, you know, like what, what do I have to do to become acceptable in the public's eye? Like do I write an amazing film? The screenplay that now is like, wow, she's more than an adult actress.

01:22

'''Ashley:''' Oh, I agree 100%. I would like to think that, you know, hypersexuality and intelligence kind of go hand in hand.