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11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends: Difference between revisions

11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends (edit)

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'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, no, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and, uh, it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.  
'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, no, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and, uh, it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.  


Eric:  Well, so what I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting, because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting.  
'''Eric:'''   Well, so what I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting, because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting.  
For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.
For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.


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'''Sam:'''  And had nothing but, you know, nostalgia for the 60's that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at the, you know, the "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" moment. That was a, it was just the level of dysfunction and the non-acknowledgement of dysfunction.  It was pretty shocking.  
'''Sam:'''  And had nothing but, you know, nostalgia for the 60's that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at the, you know, the "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" moment. That was a, it was just the level of dysfunction and the non-acknowledgement of dysfunction.  It was pretty shocking.  


'''Eric:''' Well...
'''Eric:''' Well...


'''Sam:'''  So I'm not getting really...
'''Sam:'''  So I'm not getting really...
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'''Sam:'''  Okay.  
'''Sam:'''  Okay.  


'''Eric:''' The, what I recall of the story was, is that The Times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up The Times and said, 'I refuse. I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart-opening and I'm not going to file that story. So, if that's what you want, how...'  
'''Eric:''' The, what I recall of the story was, is that The Times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up The Times and said, 'I refuse. I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart-opening and I'm not going to file that story. So, if that's what you want, how...'  


'''Sam:''' And I have cholera (laughter)   
'''Sam:''' And I have cholera (laughter)   
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'''Eric:''' So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at The New York Times all along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old-line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn-based writers who are telling us how to, how to think.  
'''Eric:''' So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at The New York Times all along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old-line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn-based writers who are telling us how to, how to think.  


'''Sam:''' Yeah.  
'''Sam:''' Yeah.  


'''Eric:'''  What do you make of it?
'''Eric:'''  What do you make of it?
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'''Sam:'''  But it's not what I'm saying to be bad about journalism in general is that what you think of as the institution. I mean, just like the veneer, the front-facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is apparently non-existent. I mean, so like, you know, people used to think Salon was real journalism or with The Guardian. I mean, The Guardian has like kind of the blog side and The Guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well...
'''Sam:'''  But it's not what I'm saying to be bad about journalism in general is that what you think of as the institution. I mean, just like the veneer, the front-facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is apparently non-existent. I mean, so like, you know, people used to think Salon was real journalism or with The Guardian. I mean, The Guardian has like kind of the blog side and The Guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well...


'''Eric:''' ...and you find the same people on Twitter.
'''Eric:''' ...and you find the same people on Twitter.


'''Sam:'''  And then everyone is nuts on Twitter, whatever their reputation, right? Really is, you know, or should have been.  
'''Sam:'''  And then everyone is nuts on Twitter, whatever their reputation, right? Really is, you know, or should have been.  


'''Eric:''' Well, you could just see their, their bias, like they're not hiding it on Twitter and then they hide it when they're in their journalistic frame.
'''Eric:'''   Well, you could just see their, their bias, like they're not hiding it on Twitter and then they hide it when they're in their journalistic frame.


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'''Eric:'''    00:10:18      Next up, we're thrilled to be welcoming back, returning sponsor Boll and Branch maker of luxury sheets. Now what has Boll and Branch figured out? Well, first of all, they make fantastic shades, but they've also figured out how to cut out the middle-man and sell directly to their consumers. That means that we all get a huge discount and some of the best sleeps of our life. If you've ever wondered why when you go over to a particular friend's house or perhaps a luxury hotel, you wake up feeling refreshed. It might very well be that the sheets are cut above what you're used to sleeping on. They make the softest and most comfortable sheets in the world, the only ones beloved by three U.S. presidents from both political parties. So, for a limited time you can get their luxury flannel bedding to keep you cool sleepers warm and because they breathe, keep the warm sleepers cool.
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'''Sam:'''  Right, exactly.  
'''Sam:'''  Right, exactly.  


'''Eric:''' So I think that there is a certain amount of method that you were slow to give, give him credit for. But I think you're probably inching towards the idea that if he's not an evil genius, he has some evil genius.  
'''Eric:''' So I think that there is a certain amount of method that you were slow to give, give him credit for. But I think you're probably inching towards the idea that if he's not an evil genius, he has some evil genius.  


'''Sam:'''  I think it's just, again, I, I'm enamored of my Chauncey Gardiner-Gardner analogy.  
'''Sam:'''  I think it's just, again, I, I'm enamored of my Chauncey Gardiner-Gardner analogy.  
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'''Eric:'''  So he knows, he knows that the feedback that he's getting from the press, in general, has a constant distortion. And so by holding a rally, he can figure out to some ext..... I mean, it's like constant AB testing.
'''Eric:'''  So he knows, he knows that the feedback that he's getting from the press, in general, has a constant distortion. And so by holding a rally, he can figure out to some ext..... I mean, it's like constant AB testing.


'''Sam:''' But it doesn't have the fact that he wasn't canceled for one of his sins...
'''Sam:''' But it doesn't have the fact that he wasn't canceled for one of his sins...


'''Eric:''' He was!
'''Eric:''' He was!


'''Sam:'''  No, but the fact that the fact that there's enough, there are enough people to insulate... he has enough fans of this style of, of communication and, and living that he's, he's uncancellable. Right?  
'''Sam:'''  No, but the fact that the fact that there's enough, there are enough people to insulate... he has enough fans of this style of, of communication and, and living that he's, he's uncancellable. Right?  


'''Sam:''' The fact that we have 40%...  
'''Sam:''' The fact that we have 40%...  


'''Eric:''' No he's cancelled.
'''Eric:''' No he's cancelled.
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'''Eric:'''  I disagree with this, Sam. I think you're getting this wrong. This is what I think might be interesting. I'm happy to be...
'''Eric:'''  I disagree with this, Sam. I think you're getting this wrong. This is what I think might be interesting. I'm happy to be...


'''Sam:''' Okay.  
'''Sam:''' Okay.  


'''Eric:'''  I'm happy to be wrong, too.  
'''Eric:'''  I'm happy to be wrong, too.  


'''Sam:''' So you think that at what point, are we wrong?
'''Sam:''' So you think that at what point, are we wrong?


'''Eric:'''  I think we're still in the stage of being so angry at Bill Clintonism...
'''Eric:'''  I think we're still in the stage of being so angry at Bill Clintonism...
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'''Sam:'''        00:27:51      Well, and some of this comes back to the hypocrisy point I was making before. So, I, I have that Trumpian module in my brain that feels just the pure schadenfreude of seeing Justin Trudeau get wholly cloistered on his own petard, right? So, here's this sanctimonious enforcer of woke culture just pandering to the left, it's clearly unsustainable, it's clearly dishonest, it's, and unworkable. And, you know, offline we spoke about just that moment where he's, he's admonishing this, this elementary school-age girl when she says the word mankind, which is a, you know it's great to hear a sixth grader use a phrase, mankind. But he says: "No, we say people kind". Maybe they say people kind up in Canada, I haven't heard that. But, you know, even just saying humankind there and, and, and enforcing that, that taboo there was just, that's the elitism the goofy elitism that, that...  
'''Sam:'''        00:27:51      Well, and some of this comes back to the hypocrisy point I was making before. So, I, I have that Trumpian module in my brain that feels just the pure schadenfreude of seeing Justin Trudeau get wholly cloistered on his own petard, right? So, here's this sanctimonious enforcer of woke culture just pandering to the left, it's clearly unsustainable, it's clearly dishonest, it's, and unworkable. And, you know, offline we spoke about just that moment where he's, he's admonishing this, this elementary school-age girl when she says the word mankind, which is a, you know it's great to hear a sixth grader use a phrase, mankind. But he says: "No, we say people kind". Maybe they say people kind up in Canada, I haven't heard that. But, you know, even just saying humankind there and, and, and enforcing that, that taboo there was just, that's the elitism the goofy elitism that, that...  


'''Eric:''' Yeah but it's not the elitism. It's the fact that these people have been picking our pockets and they've been divorcing us from each other.
'''Eric:''' Yeah but it's not the elitism. It's the fact that these people have been picking our pockets and they've been divorcing us from each other.


'''Sam:''' I'm just saying, I get the, 'let's just watch these fuckers burn' stream of pleasure that you can get coursing in your brain. And that, that explains a lot of the Trump phenomenon where it's just, on some level, they don't care that he's the most odious liar we've ever seen. Are they being his, his fan base? They just love to see him wind up the libtards or they love to see...  
'''Sam:''' I'm just saying, I get the, 'let's just watch these fuckers burn' stream of pleasure that you can get coursing in your brain. And that, that explains a lot of the Trump phenomenon where it's just, on some level, they don't care that he's the most odious liar we've ever seen. Are they being his, his fan base? They just love to see him wind up the libtards or they love to see...  


'''Eric:'''  It's not the libtards that they...Sam. I'm really trying to get at something. I may be wrong, so forgive me if I'm, if I'm going off on a tangent, but I really think that there was something much more evil. It wasn't just that people were sneering at us over crudité. You know, it's like, it's that they were picking our pockets. They were divorcing us from each other. They came up with a bullshit ideology, if you will, of the, of the Davos flavor that said, you know, we are the world and divorced us from each other in terms of our obligations to fellow countrymen above our obligations to people who, you know, live abroad. That was really a cover for figuring out how to make money when we were largely in many ways stagnant. And so you had a class of people who probably blew out the Gini coefficient for the U S without getting to the real issues of the fact that we're a country, that we put people in uniform and you know, send them into harm's way, that we have a higher duty and care in most of our minds to each other than we do to equally deserving people overseas.  
'''Eric:'''  It's not the libtards that they...Sam. I'm really trying to get at something. I may be wrong, so forgive me if I'm, if I'm going off on a tangent, but I really think that there was something much more evil. It wasn't just that people were sneering at us over crudité. You know, it's like, it's that they were picking our pockets. They were divorcing us from each other. They came up with a bullshit ideology, if you will, of the, of the Davos flavor that said, you know, we are the world and divorced us from each other in terms of our obligations to fellow countrymen above our obligations to people who, you know, live abroad. That was really a cover for figuring out how to make money when we were largely in many ways stagnant. And so you had a class of people who probably blew out the Gini coefficient for the U S without getting to the real issues of the fact that we're a country, that we put people in uniform and you know, send them into harm's way, that we have a higher duty and care in most of our minds to each other than we do to equally deserving people overseas.  
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'''Eric:'''  Is that, is that your model for what was going on?  
'''Eric:'''  Is that, is that your model for what was going on?  


'''Sam:''' Well, it's, it's, it's my model for part of it. So, I mean, take someone like, well, let me take Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, right? Well, I don't know Mark I don't know how mercenary he's been from the beginning or, and how out of touch with the possible harms he might cause, he's been.  
'''Sam:''' Well, it's, it's, it's my model for part of it. So, I mean, take someone like, well, let me take Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, right? Well, I don't know Mark I don't know how mercenary he's been from the beginning or, and how out of touch with the possible harms he might cause, he's been.  


But I can, well imagine that here's somebody who could honestly say, you know, connecting people is an intrinsic good. I'm just going to do that better than anybody. And the, you know, the wealth will come and this is all good for everybody. Right? And then only at the 11th hour, you know, long after many of us have, have noticed a problem, he begins to play catch up with the problem.  
But I can, well imagine that here's somebody who could honestly say, you know, connecting people is an intrinsic good. I'm just going to do that better than anybody. And the, you know, the wealth will come and this is all good for everybody. Right? And then only at the 11th hour, you know, long after many of us have, have noticed a problem, he begins to play catch up with the problem.  
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'''Sam:'''  That's a good icebreaker.  
'''Sam:'''  That's a good icebreaker.  


'''Eric:''' And she said, well, you know, the rap on me is I'm all genocide all the time, but nobody cares. And I, you know, I've got book and I can't figure out the answer to the question, why is there not a resolution that we will never, why is it never again not a resolution? And every time I try to get a state to sign up for this or somebody to take this seriously, there's this weird wall that comes down.
'''Eric:'''   And she said, well, you know, the rap on me is I'm all genocide all the time, but nobody cares. And I, you know, I've got book and I can't figure out the answer to the question, why is there not a resolution that we will never, why is it never again not a resolution? And every time I try to get a state to sign up for this or somebody to take this seriously, there's this weird wall that comes down.


'''Eric:'''    00:35:54      It's the clearest thing in the world that we should never let genocide ever happen again. Right? And she was convinced and nobody's going to take her seriously. This was going to go nowhere. And then progressively, somehow this thing started to catch fire and I, for a period of time I was emailing her like, do you believe it now? Do you believe it now that this, cause I, I knew this thing was going to get huge?  
'''Eric:'''    00:35:54      It's the clearest thing in the world that we should never let genocide ever happen again. Right? And she was convinced and nobody's going to take her seriously. This was going to go nowhere. And then progressively, somehow this thing started to catch fire and I, for a period of time I was emailing her like, do you believe it now? Do you believe it now that this, cause I, I knew this thing was going to get huge?  
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'''Sam:'''        00:39:33      Yeah. Well I think people are, you're not going to get me to disagree there that people are impressively split or at least can be. And I think a coherence generally speaking or at least striving for it is good. And I think, living an examined life in part as it is, is struggling with those discoveries of, of incoherence and figuring out how to get this congress of mine, as you call yourself, to actually cohere.
'''Sam:'''        00:39:33      Yeah. Well I think people are, you're not going to get me to disagree there that people are impressively split or at least can be. And I think a coherence generally speaking or at least striving for it is good. And I think, living an examined life in part as it is, is struggling with those discoveries of, of incoherence and figuring out how to get this congress of mine, as you call yourself, to actually cohere.


'''Eric:''' But you're getting them to cohere.
'''Eric:'''   But you're getting them to cohere.


'''Sam:'''        00:40:01      Yeah. No. So, but so, but when you're talking about the normal person who, I think it is a frequent phenomenon , to have, you know, normal, the normal range of good intentions to not be a sociopath, to want to help the world to be in philanthropy, for instance, right. To, to, to, to actually to be this, I mean, you're already, if you're devoting your life, if you are a, you know, a smart person who, you know, got a good degree, who could work more or less anywhere, but you decide to work for, for a charity, right? You're already an outlier. You're already somebody who said no to Wall Street or no to Hollywood or no to something, and now you're working for the, you know, the Southern Poverty Law Center or something like, you want to just stop racism, right? So, you're already one of the good guys.  
'''Sam:'''        00:40:01      Yeah. No. So, but so, but when you're talking about the normal person who, I think it is a frequent phenomenon , to have, you know, normal, the normal range of good intentions to not be a sociopath, to want to help the world to be in philanthropy, for instance, right. To, to, to, to actually to be this, I mean, you're already, if you're devoting your life, if you are a, you know, a smart person who, you know, got a good degree, who could work more or less anywhere, but you decide to work for, for a charity, right? You're already an outlier. You're already somebody who said no to Wall Street or no to Hollywood or no to something, and now you're working for the, you know, the Southern Poverty Law Center or something like, you want to just stop racism, right? So, you're already one of the good guys.  
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'''Eric:'''    00:42:22      Well, let's be, let's put a finer point on it. They are now more likely to let the genie out of the bottle because of their bad behavior or to, you know, huff and puff on an ember that is the pathetic KU Klux Klan of 2019, right? To actually create something that could, it could turn into a roaring fire. I mean, this is a general feature, I often talk about this in terms of magnetic and true North where the angle of declination that separates them is very small at the equator but in Northern Canada it's very large. Right?  
'''Eric:'''    00:42:22      Well, let's be, let's put a finer point on it. They are now more likely to let the genie out of the bottle because of their bad behavior or to, you know, huff and puff on an ember that is the pathetic KU Klux Klan of 2019, right? To actually create something that could, it could turn into a roaring fire. I mean, this is a general feature, I often talk about this in terms of magnetic and true North where the angle of declination that separates them is very small at the equator but in Northern Canada it's very large. Right?  


'''Sam:''' And, and at the, at the pole South is everywhere.  
'''Sam:'''   And, and at the, at the pole South is everywhere.  


'''Eric:''' Well, that's right. Yeah. Right. And so it's just the problem is, is that the institution, I mean, look, I've made this point elsewhere so a regular listeners will have heard it, but the concept of the embedded growth obligation, the ego of an institution, which is, it has to do work and grow in order to meet its mandates.
'''Eric:'''   Well, that's right. Yeah. Right. And so it's just the problem is, is that the institution, I mean, look, I've made this point elsewhere so a regular listeners will have heard it, but the concept of the embedded growth obligation, the ego of an institution, which is, it has to do work and grow in order to meet its mandates.


'''Eric:'''    00:43:27      That is the thing that has metastasized throughout our institutional structure. And so, it's not the Southern Poverty Law Center. I mean, that's particularly egregious, but the entire university system, every single measure you can take on that thing, looks like an intergenerational wealth transfer right down to the nondischargeability of student debt and bankruptcy. Well, the loading up of every university by administrators and the monopolization at the moment, almost 100% of our leading institutions are run by a baby boomer whereas the average age, in a different era of a university president, we could have most of them under gen X control and some of them under millennial control, there were university presidents in their thirties who had a huge impact. I mean, that is a system which has gone totally metastatic.
'''Eric:'''    00:43:27      That is the thing that has metastasized throughout our institutional structure. And so, it's not the Southern Poverty Law Center. I mean, that's particularly egregious, but the entire university system, every single measure you can take on that thing, looks like an intergenerational wealth transfer right down to the nondischargeability of student debt and bankruptcy. Well, the loading up of every university by administrators and the monopolization at the moment, almost 100% of our leading institutions are run by a baby boomer whereas the average age, in a different era of a university president, we could have most of them under gen X control and some of them under millennial control, there were university presidents in their thirties who had a huge impact. I mean, that is a system which has gone totally metastatic.
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'''Eric:'''    00:44:30  It's the worst large system of its kind.
'''Eric:'''    00:44:30  It's the worst large system of its kind.


'''Sam:'''        00:44:34      Yeah. I mean, the way costs have gone up there, you know, way outpacing inflation,
'''Sam:'''        00:44:34      Yeah. I mean, the way costs have gone up there, you know, way outpacing inflation.


'''Eric:'''  Out pacing, medical.
'''Eric:'''  Out pacing medical.


'''Sam:'''  and, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's amazing. And the fact that you can't discharge your debt in bankruptcy.  
'''Sam:'''  And, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's amazing. And the fact that you can't discharge your debt in bankruptcy.  


'''Eric:'''  It’s perfect.  
'''Eric:'''  It’s perfect.  
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'''Sam:'''        00:46:33      But we have a hand in this so we can tune the landscape, right?  
'''Sam:'''        00:46:33      But we have a hand in this so we can tune the landscape, right?  


'''Eric:''' Sometimes I feel like the two of us. Yeah. That's why I call you Sam. What the hell is going on?  
'''Eric:'''   Sometimes I feel like the two of us. Yeah. That's why I call you Sam. What the hell is going on?  


'''Sam:''' Yes. A relatively small number of people can do it. It's not, it's not, it doesn't take 7 billion people or 8 billion people. No, but like you, you need to convince the top, you know, 3000 people that one way of talking doesn't work. Right. And to, to, to align fitness and truth more faithfully.  
'''Sam:'''   Yes. A relatively small number of people can do it. It's not, it's not, it doesn't take 7 billion people or 8 billion people. No, but like you, you need to convince the top, you know, 3000 people that one way of talking doesn't work. Right. And to, to, to align fitness and truth more faithfully.  


'''Eric:'''  You know, I mean, I'm not used to disagreeing with you this much.
'''Eric:'''  You know, I mean, I'm not used to disagreeing with you this much.


'''Sam:''' Good. That's why I came here with my alter-ego. Yeah.
'''Sam:'''   Good. That's why I came here with my alter-ego. Yeah.


'''Eric:'''    00:47:13      Sam, I think we've screwed up a lot worse than you're imagining in the past. And that that is the fodder for the twin evils of Trumpism and Wokeism.
'''Eric:'''    00:47:13      Sam, I think we've screwed up a lot worse than you're imagining in the past. And that that is the fodder for the twin evils of Trumpism and Wokeism.
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'''Sam:'''        00:47:26      But just, just grant me the, the possible sea change effect of the 3000 people, the right 3000 people, fundamentally getting their head straight on, on these issues or any issue, right. Whatever it is. So, you're talking about basically all of Hollywood, all of journalism and all of the science that's public facing.  
'''Sam:'''        00:47:26      But just, just grant me the, the possible sea change effect of the 3000 people, the right 3000 people, fundamentally getting their head straight on, on these issues or any issue, right. Whatever it is. So, you're talking about basically all of Hollywood, all of journalism and all of the science that's public facing.  


'''Eric:''' If we could do that.  
'''Eric:'''   If we could do that.  


'''Sam:''' Yeah.  
'''Sam:'''   Yeah.  


'''Eric:''' Okay. In some, some thought experiment? Yeah. I guess what my feeling is, first of all is, is that my head is so filled with malware. I've got, I'm running so many nonsensical programs put there by other people that I don't even know are nonsense. Or I can detect...  
'''Eric:'''   Okay. In some, some thought experiment? Yeah. I guess what my feeling is, first of all is, is that my head is so filled with malware. I've got, I'm running so many nonsensical programs put there by other people that I don't even know are nonsense. Or I can detect...  


'''Sam:''' you have a sense of what direction to point you're going to find the nonsense. What are you worried about?
'''Sam:'''   You have a sense of what direction to point you're going to find the nonsense. What are you worried about?


'''Eric:''' well, so we're currently sitting in a room with reflective glass and anechoic tiles that deaden sound. If I echolocate by things that I am absolutely positive would sell newspapers that aren't printed, it's like, okay, you're echolocating and instead of hearing the reflection off of glass, you're hearing a, an absence, which is anechoic tile. And so, if I just look at Google trends, which tells me what people are searching on, if I look at how Google autocompletes, which tells me what they want me to see is what other people are searching on in the search bar. If I look at what stories aren't being run, all of the dead stuff is astounding to me right at the moment.  
'''Eric:'''   Well, so we're currently sitting in a room with reflective glass and anechoic tiles that deaden sound. If I echolocate by things that I am absolutely positive would sell newspapers that aren't printed, it's like, okay, you're echolocating and instead of hearing the reflection off of glass, you're hearing a, an absence, which is anechoic tile. And so, if I just look at Google trends, which tells me what people are searching on, if I look at how Google autocompletes, which tells me what they want me to see is what other people are searching on in the search bar. If I look at what stories aren't being run, all of the dead stuff is astounding to me right at the moment.  


Like I know for example that people are fascinated by the Jeffrey Epstein story. And in general, like you know, we just had, so normally I don't love talking about current events because it dates the program, but we just had a Kevin Spacey's accuser reported as dying. I don't think that that is likely to be part of some super evil plot to just so people can calibrate. It's not that everything that could make sense because there's an incentive, I chalk up to a conspiracy.  
Like I know for example that people are fascinated by the Jeffrey Epstein story. And in general, like you know, we just had, so normally I don't love talking about current events because it dates the program, but we just had a Kevin Spacey's accuser reported as dying. I don't think that that is likely to be part of some super evil plot to just so people can calibrate. It's not that everything that could make sense because there's an incentive, I chalk up to a conspiracy.  
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The Jeffrey Epstein thing is totally different and you and I both met this guy. For 15 years, and he's the only person I've been saying this with conviction about for 15 years, I had one meeting with him, I've said he's a construct. Somebody hired a person probably named Jeffrey Epstein to play a role, super genius mega billionaire philanthropist. I wasn't buying any of it, I've never bought it. And I've talked to everybody in our sort of mutual network and always used one word because I wanted to make a huge bet that when the time came, I would say he was a construct and that I would be revealed to be correct. And that everybody was asked, what do you mean by a construct? Right. Okay.  
The Jeffrey Epstein thing is totally different and you and I both met this guy. For 15 years, and he's the only person I've been saying this with conviction about for 15 years, I had one meeting with him, I've said he's a construct. Somebody hired a person probably named Jeffrey Epstein to play a role, super genius mega billionaire philanthropist. I wasn't buying any of it, I've never bought it. And I've talked to everybody in our sort of mutual network and always used one word because I wanted to make a huge bet that when the time came, I would say he was a construct and that I would be revealed to be correct. And that everybody was asked, what do you mean by a construct? Right. Okay.  


'''Sam:''' Do you need to have you clarify that on your podcast before?  
'''Sam:'''   Do you need to have you clarify that on your podcast before?  


'''Eric:''' Probably not. I, I recorded an entire Jeffrey Epstein episode, which is just me soloing for an hour, but I haven't released it cause I'm terrified. And I've had one ambiguous dinner where somebody sort of quasi threatened me and I wasn't entirely sure what they were saying. It was a little bit creepy.  
'''Eric:'''   Probably not. I, I recorded an entire Jeffrey Epstein episode, which is just me soloing for an hour, but I haven't released it cause I'm terrified. And I've had one ambiguous dinner where somebody sort of quasi threatened me and I wasn't entirely sure what they were saying. It was a little bit creepy.  


'''Sam:''' Well this is a strand of human complication that you're way more in touch with than I am. I don't deny that it exists. Right. So, like, I think there are real conspiracies and the, and powerful people occasionally, you know, do what, powerful people are occasionally sociopaths and then they, then they do what you would expect or conspired to do what you'd expect. So, I don't have a strong feeling about let's just take the livelihood that Epstein was, was had a facilitated suicide. I think the likelihood that he was murdered is low, but I'll commit suicide. I don't have a strong
'''Sam:'''   Well this is a strand of human complication that you're way more in touch with than I am. I don't deny that it exists. Right. So, like, I think there are real conspiracies and the, and powerful people occasionally, you know, do what, powerful people are occasionally sociopaths and then they, then they do what you would expect or conspired to do what you'd expect. So, I don't have a strong feeling about let's just take the livelihood that Epstein was, was had a facilitated suicide. I think the likelihood that he was murdered is low, but I'll commit suicide. I don't have a strong


'''Eric:''' I’m agnostic about that, whether some people stepped away so that he could do the thing that he needed to do, whether there's some vanishing probability that he actually isn't dead. I don't know.
'''Eric:'''   I’m agnostic about that, whether some people stepped away so that he could do the thing that he needed to do, whether there's some vanishing probability that he actually isn't dead. I don't know.


'''Sam:''' I put that at very low.  
'''Sam:'''   I put that at very low.  


'''Eric:''' I put that very low odds as well.  
'''Eric:'''   I put that very low odds as well.  


'''Sam:''' But you put no, I'm a fan of the …
'''Sam:'''   But you put no, I'm a fan of the …


'''Eric:''' Do you put it at zero odds, Sam?  
'''Eric:'''   Do you put it at zero odds, Sam?  


'''Sam:''' Well I wouldn't, I know enough about probability to put almost nothing and zero.
'''Sam:'''   Well I wouldn't, I know enough about probability to put almost nothing and zero.
Eric It’s a huge, huge difference between those people who insist, when I hear somebody insists that that probability be zero, I take it and that person is smart,  
Eric It’s a huge, huge difference between those people who insist, when I hear somebody insists that that probability be zero, I take it and that person is smart,  


'''Sam:''' But effectively, effectively zero. I mean zero in the sense that we don't have time to worry about it.
'''Sam:'''   But effectively, effectively zero. I mean zero in the sense that we don't have time to worry about it.


'''Eric:''' I wasted no time thinking about it at the moment, but I'm happy to have my Basie and priors tutored.  
'''Eric:'''   I wasted no time thinking about it at the moment, but I'm happy to have my Basie and priors tutored.  


'''Sam:''' Right.  
'''Sam:'''   Right.  


'''Eric:''' Okay.  
'''Eric:'''   Okay.  


'''Sam:'''  So, I just don't have a, I mean, as you know, I'm taking in or, or I utilize this homily that you, you shouldn't describe to, to malice what can be explained by incompetence or whatever that the formulation is.
'''Sam:'''  So, I just don't have a, I mean, as you know, I'm taking in or, or I utilize this homily that you, you shouldn't describe to, to malice what can be explained by incompetence or whatever that the formulation is.


''''''Eric:'''        00:52:10      I find that that's an interesting heuristic for somebody.  
'''Eric:'''        00:52:10      I find that that's an interesting heuristic for somebody.  


'''Sam:''' It's, it's usually, I think it's usually true, right? So, like it works much of the time and then it, it fails, but it fails in a case where you get more information and then you update your view.
'''Sam:'''   It's, it's usually, I think it's usually true, right? So, like it works much of the time and then it, it fails, but it fails in a case where you get more information and then you update your view.


'''Eric:''' That's what that was. That was exactly my point that the Kevin Spacey thing I would say is in the realm of Newtonian mechanics. And then the Jeff Epstein thing is like relativistic quantum field theory. Whatever your Newtonian laws are, we're not in Kansas anymore.
'''Eric:''' That's what that was. That was exactly my point that the Kevin Spacey thing I would say is in the realm of Newtonian mechanics. And then the Jeff Epstein thing is like relativistic quantum field theory. Whatever your Newtonian laws are, we're not in Kansas anymore.


'''Sam:''' But I had no, you put me in the same room with him. So, I should probably clarify that. So, I had, I've found myself, but  
'''Sam:'''   But I had no, you put me in the same room with him. So, I should probably clarify that. So, I had, I've found myself, but  


'''Eric:''' We should both apologize. Nothing happened.  
'''Eric:''' We should both apologize. Nothing happened.  


'''Sam:'''  I found myself at a lunch with him at the TED conference and had no insight into him or what he was up to apart from the fact that he, you know, my sort of creep detector went off,
'''Sam:'''  I found myself at a lunch with him at the TED conference and had no insight into him or what he was up to apart from the fact that he, you know, my sort of creep detector went off.


Eric Mine spiked like crazy.
'''Eric'''  Mine spiked like crazy.


'''Sam:'''        00:53:03      Yeah. I mean, I just, he was someone who I didn't want to spend any more time with because he had this sort of schlocky rich guy. But within, well, no, no, I mentioned, but like when you see a, I guess he was probably, you know, close to 60 at this point and you know, he's with a 21 year old, you know, it's like a, it's like the optics of that are all the, I mean, obviously there are many rich guys who do that, you know, and there are many, certainly many people in Hollywood to do that. And you know, that's just the way people, some people roll when they have the opportunity to roll that way and that, okay, fine. But he,  he was just a, I have a kind of a level of, you know, judgmentalism around that, you know, it's like, at minimum, that's a, a, an attractor on the, on the landscape of, of well-being that is
'''Sam:'''        00:53:03      Yeah. I mean, I just, he was someone who I didn't want to spend any more time with because he had this sort of schlocky rich guy. But within, well, no, no, I mentioned, but like when you see a, I guess he was probably, you know, close to 60 at this point and you know, he's with a 21 year old, you know, it's like a, it's like the optics of that are all the, I mean, obviously there are many rich guys who do that, you know, and there are many, certainly many people in Hollywood to do that. And you know, that's just the way people, some people roll when they have the opportunity to roll that way and that, okay, fine. But he,  he was just a, I have a kind of a level of, you know, judgmentalism around that, you know, it's like, at minimum, that's a, a, an attractor on the, on the landscape of, of well-being that is
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'''Sam:'''  Right, because this was like a 10-person lunch. Okay. And I had maybe, you know, three sentences exchange with him.
'''Sam:'''  Right, because this was like a 10-person lunch. Okay. And I had maybe, you know, three sentences exchange with him.


'''Eric:''' You know, so mine was at his house, right. I'm ushered into a waiting room. He's got some super complicated electronical electronic art. I get up, I look at it and I say, wait, is that, is that a camera inside the art? I, the first thing, I'm a genius for finding the cameras. I inside, my next thought is I'm supposed to find the camera inside the art because the cam, the art is supposed to draw my attention and I'm supposed to see that I'm being recorded.  
'''Eric:''' You know, so mine was at his house, right. I'm ushered into a waiting room. He's got some super complicated electronical electronic art. I get up, I look at it and I say, wait, is that, is that a camera inside the art? I, the first thing, I'm a genius for finding the cameras. I inside, my next thought is I'm supposed to find the camera inside the art because the cam, the art is supposed to draw my attention and I'm supposed to see that I'm being recorded.  


I'm called out to a room in back with a huge long, it's sort of exaggerated dining table with a giant American flag as its tablecloth, so that any food or drink that is served on it may spill onto an American flag. And I'm just in high alert, like, fuck you. Who, who, who are you?  
I'm called out to a room in back with a huge long, it's sort of exaggerated dining table with a giant American flag as its tablecloth, so that any food or drink that is served on it may spill onto an American flag. And I'm just in high alert, like, fuck you. Who, who, who are you?  
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'''Sam:''' Right.  
'''Sam:''' Right.  


'''Eric:''' So, a lot of people continued to talk to him in part because, and I think this is something that hasn't been teased out, he was supporting an older style of science, which this is again, something that's gonna be super complicated, was much more disagreeable. Now the woke movement has seized on this as well,  that's the cowboy oppressive science of male assholes. But he was supporting a network of people who might not have been supported otherwise to somewhat break out of the mold. And because the U.S. government had stepped away from that work in, in, in large measure, in my opinion, people were so dependent on him that they were eager to look the other way. And there was also the hint, I think that this wasn't really Jeffrey Epstein, that this was really something else funding.
'''Eric:''' So, a lot of people continued to talk to him in part because, and I think this is something that hasn't been teased out, he was supporting an older style of science, which this is again, something that's gonna be super complicated, was much more disagreeable. Now the woke movement has seized on this as well,  that's the cowboy oppressive science of male assholes. But he was supporting a network of people who might not have been supported otherwise to somewhat break out of the mold. And because the U.S. government had stepped away from that work in, in, in large measure, in my opinion, people were so dependent on him that they were eager to look the other way. And there was also the hint, I think that this wasn't really Jeffrey Epstein, that this was really something else funding.


'''Sam:'''        00:58:48      Hmm. Well, I dunno about that. I mean, I, I think the, the relative penury of science is a corrupting variable and the fact that we, we underfund science and that it matters that when the rich guy comes into the room, right to, to scientists because they're so starved for money, that's just, that's just corrupting.
'''Sam:'''        00:58:48      Hmm. Well, I dunno about that. I mean, I, I think the, the relative penury of science is a corrupting variable and the fact that we, we underfund science and that it matters that when the rich guy comes into the room, right to, to scientists because they're so starved for money, that's just, that's just corrupting.
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'''Sam:'''  And then let's get a lot of Indians in here?
'''Sam:'''  And then let's get a lot of Indians in here?


"Eric" And well, it's four, it was four countries. It was China, India, Taiwan and Korea. And China went from zero to 60 in like, no, they were sending us nobody, and then I think there were like over 25% of all graduate students. And of course, graduate students aren't students, they're workers. So, there's a cryptic labor economy inside of the universities. And what the university system figured out was, is that in order to get this work done, we'd have to have this, these misclassified students who do the work. important. It is foreign workers. And what we would do is we would take the economic analysis, which they secretly did in 1986 and they'd subtract off the demand curve and they'd just do a supply analysis based on the demography of the baby boom going into the baby bust, which is our generation, Gen X. And that demographic alarm was sounded to get the immigration act of 1990 passed, which has like the H1B is one of its most famous features. So that's, that's a whole story about how the actual workings, I'm the guy who uncovered that and I chased that all the way down to the person who wrote that secret study that was never released, never dated, never authored.  
'''Eric:''' And well, it's four, it was four countries. It was China, India, Taiwan and Korea. And China went from zero to 60 in like, no, they were sending us nobody, and then I think there were like over 25% of all graduate students. And of course, graduate students aren't students, they're workers. So, there's a cryptic labor economy inside of the universities. And what the university system figured out was, is that in order to get this work done, we'd have to have this, these misclassified students who do the work. important. It is foreign workers. And what we would do is we would take the economic analysis, which they secretly did in 1986 and they'd subtract off the demand curve and they'd just do a supply analysis based on the demography of the baby boom going into the baby bust, which is our generation, Gen X. And that demographic alarm was sounded to get the immigration act of 1990 passed, which has like the H1B is one of its most famous features. So that's, that's a whole story about how the actual workings, I'm the guy who uncovered that and I chased that all the way down to the person who wrote that secret study that was never released, never dated, never authored.  


'''Sam:'''  Right.  
'''Sam:'''  Right.  
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'''Sam:'''        01:02:05      No, but no, but no, my, my point is that strikes me as a good policy, even though that would create more competition for, you know, so-called Americans, right? Because we're, we're now open for, for the world's business. But if you actually wanted to maximize, you know, creativity and, and industry here, you would want to import Indians and Chinese and Taiwanese and Koreans.  
'''Sam:'''        01:02:05      No, but no, but no, my, my point is that strikes me as a good policy, even though that would create more competition for, you know, so-called Americans, right? Because we're, we're now open for, for the world's business. But if you actually wanted to maximize, you know, creativity and, and industry here, you would want to import Indians and Chinese and Taiwanese and Koreans.  


'''Eric:''' Well, I mean, look, I've married the maximum number of brilliant women from the developing world who came here to do STEM that the law will allow. So I'm absolutely guilty.  
'''Eric:'''   Well, I mean, look, I've married the maximum number of brilliant women from the developing world who came here to do STEM that the law will allow. So I'm absolutely guilty.  


'''Sam:''' You got your wife and then you want to close the border?
'''Sam:'''   You got your wife and then you want to close the border?


'''Eric:''' What? Yeah. Well, first of all, that's how country clubs work, right? Right. So, the idea is that when you get country club, when you get into a country club, you don't instantly say, well, I don't understand. It would be immoral for me to close the country club.
'''Eric:'''   What? Yeah. Well, first of all, that's how country clubs work, right? Right. So, the idea is that when you get country club, when you get into a country club, you don't instantly say, well, I don't understand. It would be immoral for me to close the country club.


'''Eric:'''        01:03:01      I mean, so it's a very weird thing for me that people who are very steeped in what you were just talking about, which is this interesting mimetic complex that got pushed out don't tend to think critically about it. Of course, we want the best people in the world to come to the U S selfishly.  
'''Eric:'''        01:03:01      I mean, so it's a very weird thing for me that people who are very steeped in what you were just talking about, which is this interesting mimetic complex that got pushed out don't tend to think critically about it. Of course, we want the best people in the world to come to the U S selfishly.  
Line 514: Line 514:
'''Sam:'''  I mean, you know, everyone doesn't, I mean, the person who has to compete with the best coming from India and Taiwan and China. Yeah. That person, let's say in, in a, you know, software engineering, that person has found, now suddenly on a much more competitive playing field.  
'''Sam:'''  I mean, you know, everyone doesn't, I mean, the person who has to compete with the best coming from India and Taiwan and China. Yeah. That person, let's say in, in a, you know, software engineering, that person has found, now suddenly on a much more competitive playing field.  


'''Eric:''' And yeah, this is, this is... So what I was told about this,  
'''Eric:'''   And yeah, this is, this is... So what I was told about this,  


'''Sam:''' But I'm just not, I'm not saying that it's not without cost to somebody. It's definitely costing somebody something. Right?  
'''Sam:'''   But I'm just not, I'm not saying that it's not without cost to somebody. It's definitely costing somebody something. Right?  


'''Eric:''' Like the bad people, the people.
'''Eric:'''   Like the bad people, the people.


'''Sam:''' No, no, no. Not the bad people, but just, it's, it's like  
'''Sam:'''   No, no, no. Not the bad people, but just, it's, it's like  


'''Eric:''' I don't even know how to go into all of the things that are like really funny and wrong about this. Like one of which is, well are you afraid to compete with somebody from India? Well, maybe I'm afraid to compete with a hundred people from India. You know, like the issue is what is your your price point...
'''Eric:'''   I don't even know how to go into all of the things that are like really funny and wrong about this. Like one of which is, well are you afraid to compete with somebody from India? Well, maybe I'm afraid to compete with a hundred people from India. You know, like the issue is what is your your price point...


'''Sam:''' You are though, on this podcast, you're competing with people from India. I mean you're competing with, you know, there are 800,000 podcasts.  
'''Sam:'''   You are though, on this podcast, you're competing with people from India. I mean you're competing with, you know, there are 800,000 podcasts.  


'''Eric:''' No, no.  
'''Eric:'''   No, no.  


'''Sam:''' You're, you're competing with, with 799,999...  
'''Sam:'''   You're, you're competing with, with 799,999...  


'''Eric:''' Because it's not a uniform, because it's not a uniform product. Sam.  
'''Eric:'''   Because it's not a uniform, because it's not a uniform product. Sam.  


'''Sam:''' No, but you still...  
'''Sam:'''   No, but you still...  


'''Eric:''' When you talked about software, right, most of software is glorified foreign while loops. Let's not, you know, you, you, you, you invoke a library, you code up a class.
'''Eric:''' When you talked about software, right, most of software is glorified foreign while loops. Let's not, you know, you, you, you, you invoke a library, you code up a class.


'''Sam:''' You can outsource it. All right.
'''Sam:'''   You can outsource it. All right.


'''Eric:''' Well no, it's just, I'm just saying that most of what it is you're just writing code. It's got a kind of a mystique about it because a lot of people haven't done it and it's too symbolic, whatever.  
'''Eric:''' Well no, it's just, I'm just saying that most of what it is you're just writing code. It's got a kind of a mystique about it because a lot of people haven't done it and it's too symbolic, whatever.  


'''Sam:''' But it's plumbing.   
'''Sam:'''   But it's plumbing.   


'''Eric:''' It's plumbing and a lot of science is plumbing. Yeah. And so, a lot of the stuff about the best is not very relevant. If you wanted to take the stuff that's really distinguished, you know, like you've got Rama NuGen coming from India, you know you've got you know, Ellis coming from South Africa who, whoever it is, that's really amazing, we have plenty of room for the tiny number of people who are absolutely nonhomogeneous super contributors.  
'''Eric:'''   It's plumbing and a lot of science is plumbing. Yeah. And so, a lot of the stuff about the best is not very relevant. If you wanted to take the stuff that's really distinguished, you know, like you've got Rama NuGen coming from India, you know you've got you know, Ellis coming from South Africa who, whoever it is, that's really amazing, we have plenty of room for the tiny number of people who are absolutely nonhomogeneous super contributors.  


'''Sam:''' So, you're just saying you want to set the bar higher.  
'''Sam:'''   So, you're just saying you want to set the bar higher.  


'''Eric:''' I'm not saying that, I'm saying a lot of different things. One is that people in the country have rights and they have asymmetric rights to their own labor market. That's a large part of what it means to be a citizen of a country. If I start to talk about your rights that are perhaps your most valuable economic possession, if you really think about the American workers, most valuable economic possession is asymmetric access to the American labor market. If I say, you know, your right is not an asset, but is instead an impediment, it's a barrier. And what we need to do is get rid of the red tape and I'm not going to pay you for it because it's not an asset.
'''Eric:'''   I'm not saying that, I'm saying a lot of different things. One is that people in the country have rights and they have asymmetric rights to their own labor market. That's a large part of what it means to be a citizen of a country. If I start to talk about your rights that are perhaps your most valuable economic possession, if you really think about the American workers, most valuable economic possession is asymmetric access to the American labor market. If I say, you know, your right is not an asset, but is instead an impediment, it's a barrier. And what we need to do is get rid of the red tape and I'm not going to pay you for it because it's not an asset.
I'm going to take it from you and I'm going to say that that's what the free market is. Well, that has nothing to do with the free market. I wrote a paper called Migration for the Benefit of All that pointed out you're free to securitize people's right and pay for it. And then everybody wins.  
I'm going to take it from you and I'm going to say that that's what the free market is. Well, that has nothing to do with the free market. I wrote a paper called Migration for the Benefit of All that pointed out you're free to securitize people's right and pay for it. And then everybody wins.  


'''Sam:''' Yeah.
'''Sam:''' Yeah.


'''Eric:''' That's not what we do.  
'''Eric:''' That's not what we do.  


'''Sam:''' Okay, so, but that's, that's something we could do though. We could...
'''Sam:''' Okay, so, but that's, that's something we could do though. We could...


'''Eric:''' We're not interested. That would be a Coase, that's called a Coasean solution.  
'''Eric:''' We're not interested. That would be a Coase, that's called a Coasean solution.  


'''Sam:'''  Right.  
'''Sam:'''  Right.  
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'''Sam:'''  The amazing thing is you've referenced this several times over cocktails.  
'''Sam:'''  The amazing thing is you've referenced this several times over cocktails.  


'''Eric:''' Yeah.  
'''Eric:'''   Yeah.  


'''Sam:'''  In the last two years.  
'''Sam:'''  In the last two years.  
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'''Sam:'''  This is cocktail party chatter...
'''Sam:'''  This is cocktail party chatter...


'''Eric:''' No. But I see it, I see it differently.
'''Eric:'''   No. But I see it, I see it differently.


'''Sam:'''  ... the Weinstein family.   
'''Sam:'''  ... the Weinstein family.   


'''Eric:''' Sam, I see your comment that well don't we want the best and the brightest where you don't reference wage competition. It sounds more like intellectual competition, right? When you, when you, when you open a border and selectively only in certain fields, it's like opening a window in an airplane and it specifically affects the seat at which it's opened differently than everywhere else in the plane. Right?  
'''Eric:''' Sam, I see your comment that well don't we want the best and the brightest where you don't reference wage competition. It sounds more like intellectual competition, right? When you, when you, when you open a border and selectively only in certain fields, it's like opening a window in an airplane and it specifically affects the seat at which it's opened differently than everywhere else in the plane. Right?  


'''Sam:'''  Right.  
'''Sam:'''  Right.  
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'''Sam:'''        01:12:08      We have a, just a fundamental devaluation of the product. Right? Like the music, the music, the value of the music has basically gone to zero. Right. because my, my using a copy of it is not, is not taking it from you.
'''Sam:'''        01:12:08      We have a, just a fundamental devaluation of the product. Right? Like the music, the music, the value of the music has basically gone to zero. Right. because my, my using a copy of it is not, is not taking it from you.


Eric Because of two things,  its exhausted ability and exclude ability.  
'''Eric:'''  Because of two things,  its exhausted ability and exclude ability.  


Sam  Right.  
'''Sam:''' Right.  


Eric  The idea is that if I buy a vinyl record, 1) my use of it will eventually wear down the grooves.  
'''Eric:''' The idea is that if I buy a vinyl record, 1) my use of it will eventually wear down the grooves.  


Sam Exactly.  
'''Sam:'''  Exactly.  


Eric As it to do in the old days and 2) my having the record means that you don't have that car  
'''Eric:'''  As it to do in the old days and 2) my having the record means that you don't have that car.


Sam I have to borrow it.  
'''Sam:'''  I have to borrow it.  


Eric and that the, the per the unit costs is not zero.  
'''Eric:'''  And that the, the per the unit costs is not zero.  


Sam  I can't copy your record for free. Yeah.  
'''Sam''' I can't copy your record for free. Yeah.  


Eric That is this issue about private goods and services became public goods and services and even the diehard economists who are free market have to recognize that if something is inexhaustible and an excludable price does not equal value and therefore it cannot command its value.
'''Eric:'''  That is this issue about private goods and services became public goods and services and even the diehard economists who are free market have to recognize that if something is inexhaustible and an excludable price does not equal value and therefore it cannot command its value.
So that was clear to many of us just as...
So that was clear to many of us just as...


Sam  But I'm saying there's a non-nefarious account of what happened there. Where your iTunes, right, your Apple, you open iTunes for the good of all right? But you, you obviously want to make a profit, right? This is a fantastic business. But what, when, if you're the musician who now who's now because catalog is now worth, you know, one 10th of what it used to be worth and now you're, you have this sort of life change foisted on you, where now the only way for you to make ends meet is to tour. But you're 70 years old and you, you know, you, you felt your touring was behind you, right? All of this looks awful. But again, nobody was thinking about that guy when they, when these changes came about.
'''Sam:''' But I'm saying there's a non-nefarious account of what happened there. Where your iTunes, right, your Apple, you open iTunes for the good of all right? But you, you obviously want to make a profit, right? This is a fantastic business. But what, when, if you're the musician who now who's now because catalog is now worth, you know, one 10th of what it used to be worth and now you're, you have this sort of life change foisted on you, where now the only way for you to make ends meet is to tour. But you're 70 years old and you, you know, you, you felt your touring was behind you, right? All of this looks awful. But again, nobody was thinking about that guy when they, when these changes came about.


Eric  Bull shit.  
'''Eric:''' Bull shit.  


Sam Well, it's easy to see that most people weren't thinking, well, no one, no one had bad intentions toward that.  
'''Sam:'''  Well, it's easy to see that most people weren't thinking, well, no one, no one had bad intentions toward that.  


Eric Remember, information just wants to be free and free like beer and all this nonsense. I thought that stuff was just like moronic at the time. Okay. The same thing with NAFTA, right? The claim...  
'''Eric:'''  Remember, information just wants to be free and free like beer and all this nonsense. I thought that stuff was just like moronic at the time. Okay. The same thing with NAFTA, right? The claim...  


Sam But again, so, so what you had in your sites was not, you can't, I don't think you're, you're, you're the wrong theory of mind if you think everyone was aware of what you were aware of and just had the say, the ethical switch flipped in the other direction.
'''Sam:''' But again, so, so what you had in your sites was not, you can't, I don't think you're, you're, you're the wrong theory of mind if you think everyone was aware of what you were aware of and just had the say, the ethical switch flipped in the other direction.


'''Eric:'''    01:14:23      Ok. The class, the economic class teaches public goods in every Econ 101 textbook, right? They also teach trade. They have two different names for what happens to improve a society. In terms of how it's measured, one called Pareto improvement, which is that everybody in the society is as good or better off. And the other one called Kaldor-Hicks, which is, some people get hurt, some people get helped. But were you to tax the winners to pay the losers everyone could be Pareto improved. Okay. When you ask these people in real time, why are you talking about a Kaldor-Hicks improvement in Pareto terms? So, this is the technical, esoteric conversation. Why is your exoteric description of this at odds with your esoteric, alright, this is pure Straussian cryptic bullshit. They said, well, we can't really say that and we hope that somebody, it's not our job, it was this wall of total nonsense. And it wasn't that this wasn't being said in real time. But the number of people...
'''Eric:'''    01:14:23      Ok. The class, the economic class teaches public goods in every Econ 101 textbook, right? They also teach trade. They have two different names for what happens to improve a society. In terms of how it's measured, one called Pareto improvement, which is that everybody in the society is as good or better off. And the other one called Kaldor-Hicks, which is, some people get hurt, some people get helped. But were you to tax the winners to pay the losers everyone could be Pareto improved. Okay. When you ask these people in real time, why are you talking about a Kaldor-Hicks improvement in Pareto terms? So, this is the technical, esoteric conversation. Why is your exoteric description of this at odds with your esoteric, alright, this is pure Straussian cryptic bullshit. They said, well, we can't really say that and we hope that somebody, it's not our job, it was this wall of total nonsense. And it wasn't that this wasn't being said in real time. But the number of people...
Line 630: Line 630:
'''Sam:'''        01:15:35      Well, I'm sure you can find the people at the conference who were, I mean it's, you know, they, they have, they have one way of speaking to the profession. And one way of speaking on the op-ed pages in New York Times.  
'''Sam:'''        01:15:35      Well, I'm sure you can find the people at the conference who were, I mean it's, you know, they, they have, they have one way of speaking to the profession. And one way of speaking on the op-ed pages in New York Times.  


Eric This is one of the reasons why you and I split on Nassim Taleb. I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Nassim during the total nonsense called the great moderation in our financial structure right before 2008, right.  
'''Eric:'''  This is one of the reasons why you and I split on Nassim Taleb. I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Nassim during the total nonsense called the great moderation in our financial structure right before 2008, right.  


Sam And the only reason why I split on Nassim is that he just wakes up one morning and you know, off his meds and attacks me for reasons I can never fathom. So, it's like, it's totally personal. Like, or it's intended to be personal. It's not that I take it personally. I mean, I actually,  
'''Sam:'''  And the only reason why I split on Nassim is that he just wakes up one morning and you know, off his meds and attacks me for reasons I can never fathom. So, it's like, it's totally personal. Like, or it's intended to be personal. It's not that I take it personally. I mean, I actually,  


Eric  I don't even think it's already personal. He can correct me on that.
'''Eric:''' I don't even think it's already personal. He can correct me on that.


Sam  But it's apropos of nothing. Like I've been, you know, I've been sleeping when he was sleeping and then I turn on Twitter and I see that he's attacked me by name for some reason...
'''Sam:''' But it's apropos of nothing. Like I've been, you know, I've been sleeping when he was sleeping and then I turn on Twitter and I see that he's attacked me by name for some reason...


Eric When my phone lights up and it says Nassim.
'''Eric:''' When my phone lights up and it says Nassim...


Sam  There's no intellectual content.
'''Sam:''' There's no intellectual content.


'''Eric:'''    01:16:33      When it says Nassim Nicholas Taleb, he's been my friend for a long time. I literally shake like I have to hit. Right?
'''Eric:'''    01:16:33      When it says Nassim Nicholas Taleb, he's been my friend for a long time. I literally shake like I have to hit. Right?
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'''Sam:'''        01:24:44      You wouldn't want, I mean, well, take the most extreme case. You wouldn't want to be the person who would pay more for the veal if you knew there was more suffering associated with it. Right, you wouldn't want to, we wouldn't want one, we  wouldn't want to be the person who, for whom the suffering is part of the pleasure. Right? That's the, there, that's clearly a place on the moral landscape you don't want to be.
'''Sam:'''        01:24:44      You wouldn't want, I mean, well, take the most extreme case. You wouldn't want to be the person who would pay more for the veal if you knew there was more suffering associated with it. Right, you wouldn't want to, we wouldn't want one, we  wouldn't want to be the person who, for whom the suffering is part of the pleasure. Right? That's the, there, that's clearly a place on the moral landscape you don't want to be.


'''Eric''' Yeah. And you don't want to be associated with, right. So, if that's at all unsavory, then they're there many gradations of better than that.  
'''Eric:''' Yeah. And you don't want to be associated with, right. So, if that's at all unsavory, then they're there many gradations of better than that.  


Eric  Right. So, it's back to my issue about orcas are either the best or worst species?  
'''Eric:''' Right. So, it's back to my issue about orcas are either the best or worst species?  


Sam Yeah. No but I didn't mean to derail you there, but it matters. Like we need to unpack the mimetic complex and get at what's inside. And it matters if we, if we fail to, if there's a lot inside and we were, we're unaware of it.  
'''Sam:''' Yeah. No but I didn't mean to derail you there, but it matters. Like we need to unpack the mimetic complex and get at what's inside. And it matters if we, if we fail to, if there's a lot inside and we were, we're unaware of it.  


Eric Sure.  
'''Eric:''' Sure.  


Sam That matters.
'''Sam:''' That matters.




Eric  Okay.  
'''Eric:''' Okay.  


Sam How often are we just saying veal, but  
'''Sam:''' How often are we just saying veal, but...


Eric  
'''Eric:'''  For example, I remember when Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was being interviewed about superdelegates and she said they're not super delegates. They're unpledged delegates and delegates. And why do we have to have them? And I think she said something to the effect, and if I'm getting this wrong, I apologize.
For example, I remember when Debbie Wasserman Schultz was being interviewed about superdelegates and she said they're not super delegates. They're unpledged delegates and delegates. And why do we have to have them? And I think she said something to the effect, and if I'm getting this wrong, I


'''Eric:'''    01:26:04      apologize. Something like, well, you wouldn't want the, the people who aren't regular party workers, you know, just being able to take over the party, something like this. I was thinking like, Oh, that's what we all think it is, that it's a primary and that the people who are registered Democrats should figure out who that they should support as a candidate. And her point was, well, we have to have a thumb on the scale, otherwise democracy might happen.  
'''Eric:'''    01:26:04      Something like, well, you wouldn't want the, the people who aren't regular party workers, you know, just being able to take over the party, something like this. I was thinking like, Oh, that's what we all think it is, that it's a primary and that the people who are registered Democrats should figure out who that they should support as a candidate. And her point was, well, we have to have a thumb on the scale, otherwise democracy might happen.  


Same Right? Yeah.  
'''Sam:''' Right? Yeah.  


Eric  And like that thing is how we encode the badness. We encode it by creating some different way of talking about it.
'''Eric:''' And like that thing is how we encode the badness. We encode it by creating some different way of talking about it.


Sam How we encode it or we fail to encode it, how it becomes operable or how...
'''Sam:'''  How we encode it or we fail to encode it, how it becomes operable or how...


Eric Well, nobody's a bad person in their own mind most of the time.  
'''Eric:'''  Well, nobody's a bad person in their own mind most of the time.  


Sam Yeah. Most.  
'''Sam:'''  Yeah. Most.  


Eric So, when I do bad things, I encode it differently. So, we were just in a, in a situation where we were waiting in a very long line of cars for an off ramp and our car, you know, and our car sort of zoomed ahead and then asked somebody's you know understanding that we would cut in right towards the exit.
'''Eric:'''    So, when I do bad things, I encode it differently. So, we were just in a, in a situation where we were waiting in a very long line of cars for an off ramp and our car, you know, and our car sort of zoomed ahead and then asked somebody's you know understanding that we would cut in right towards the exit.


'''Eric:'''    01:27:11      So, you know, sort of high fiving like, geez, we almost got caught in that really long line. Later in the day somebody cuts in front of us, much less of a problem. It's like, can you believe that guy? And so, this way in which we sort of see ourselves as the permanent like good guy protagonist in the first case being savvy.  
'''Eric:'''    01:27:11      So, you know, sort of high fiving like, geez, we almost got caught in that really long line. Later in the day somebody cuts in front of us, much less of a problem. It's like, can you believe that guy? And so, this way in which we sort of see ourselves as the permanent like good guy protagonist in the first case being savvy.  


Sam Yeah. But so, don't you think living a good life is in large measure a matter of kind of squeezing the, the delta between those two states of mind?  
'''Sam:'''  Yeah. But so, don't you think living a good life is in large measure a matter of kind of squeezing the, the delta between those two states of mind?  


Eric  I think you think that that's true.
'''Eric:''' I think you think that that's true.


Sam That's why it was a leading question.  
'''Sam:''' That's why it was a leading question.  


Eric  I know, I know, but I think that it's actually much more tricky.  
'''Eric:''' I know, I know, but I think that it's actually much more tricky.  


Sam So, let's take the antithesis. What if I told you that I thought it was a matter of getting broadening that gulf, right? So, to be more extremely at odds with oneself, depending on what side of the table you're on.
'''Sam:'''  So, let's take the antithesis. What if I told you that I thought it was a matter of getting broadening that gulf, right? So, to be more extremely at odds with oneself, depending on what side of the table you're on.


'''Eric:'''    01:28:03      See I think you would have been less likely to cut in line, but if you did cut in line, I wonder if you'd be less likely to notice it and talk about it the way I do. So, I think that your morality and my morality differ slightly.  
'''Eric:'''    01:28:03      See I think you would have been less likely to cut in line, but if you did cut in line, I wonder if you'd be less likely to notice it and talk about it the way I do. So, I think that your morality and my morality differ slightly.  


Sam  I don't think you're giving me, you're giving Nassim Taleb too much credit and you're not giving me enough.  
'''Sam:''' I don't think you're giving me, you're giving Nassim Taleb too much credit and you're not giving me enough.  


Eric Oh, is that right?  
'''Eric:'''  Oh, is that right?  


Sam So, so I am  
'''Sam:'''  So, so I am  


Eric I see you as being pretty consistent in a lot of ways.  
'''Eric:''' I see you as being pretty consistent in a lot of ways.  


Sam Yeah. What I aspire to be is to, to cut in line the right amount.  
'''Sam:'''  Yeah. What I aspire to be is to, to cut in line the right amount.  


Eric Okay.  
'''Eric:'''  Okay.  


Sam And to be appropriately nonjudgmental when I see someone else cut in line.
Sam And to be appropriately nonjudgmental when I see someone else cut in line.


Eric Well, so that's very odd. I'm pretty close to that.  
'''Eric:'''  Well, so that's very odd. I'm pretty close to that.  


Sam Yeah. I mean I, so I don't have too many illusions about what it is to do it and what and but what it is when somebody else does it. So, I don't, I'm not as, and when I catch, when I occasionally catch myself in that, that mismatch between you know, who I'm capable of being in one moment and how judgmental I am of somebody else in that same mode.  
'''Sam:'''  Yeah. I mean I, so I don't have too many illusions about what it is to do it and what and but what it is when somebody else does it. So, I don't, I'm not as, and when I catch, when I occasionally catch myself in that, that mismatch between you know, who I'm capable of being in one moment and how judgmental I am of somebody else in that same mode.  


'''Eric:'''        01:29:02      Noticing your own sort of issues makes you a better person if you can port them more generally. So, in other words, if you say, look, I, I recognize that you know, I'm not the, I'm not the best around food or something, but yeah, I am very conscious in some other area like being timely. Well, if you can recognize some, somebody else's failings as akin to your own in a different area and port that, that's a way in which like being in touch with your own hypocrisy I think makes you a better person. And I worry about people who are trying to rid themselves of their hypocrisy rather than first noticing it and then sort of minimizing it so that it is, it's less garish.
'''Eric:'''        01:29:02      Noticing your own sort of issues makes you a better person if you can port them more generally. So, in other words, if you say, look, I, I recognize that you know, I'm not the, I'm not the best around food or something, but yeah, I am very conscious in some other area like being timely. Well, if you can recognize some, somebody else's failings as akin to your own in a different area and port that, that's a way in which like being in touch with your own hypocrisy I think makes you a better person. And I worry about people who are trying to rid themselves of their hypocrisy rather than first noticing it and then sort of minimizing it so that it is, it's less garish.


Sam But yeah. But to be, to truly want to minimize it, you have to be in touch with it.
'''Sam:'''  But yeah. But to be, to truly want to minimize it, you have to be in touch with it.


'''Eric:'''        01:29:59      Right.  
'''Eric:'''        01:29:59      Right.  


'''Sam''' So, we run those, that's two pieces of software you're running at the same time.  
'''Sam''' So, we run those, that's two pieces of software you're running at the same time.  


'''Eric''' Well, it's, I think it's more like I don't see any prospect for ridding myself of it. And other people, so, I caught someone that I have to get rid of it. You know, it's like it's, it's a, it's an imagined state that they could, they could prove more or less that you can't live without it.  
'''Eric''' Well, it's, I think it's more like I don't see any prospect for ridding myself of it. And other people, so, I caught someone that I have to get rid of it. You know, it's like it's, it's a, it's an imagined state that they could, they could prove more or less that you can't live without it.  


'''Sam''' We, we, because you're not a unitary thing, right?  
'''Sam''' We, we, because you're not a unitary thing, right?  


'''Eric''' You aren't a unitary thing. Right. And most of us, even though we know that we still treat ourselves as unitary things, which is bizarre.
'''Eric''' You aren't a unitary thing. Right. And most of us, even though we know that we still treat ourselves as unitary things, which is bizarre.


Sam Yeah.
'''Sam:'''  Yeah.


Eric well you're in the mindfulness...
'''Eric:'''  Well you're in the mindfulness...


Sam I work hard not to do that,  
'''Sam:'''  I work hard not to do that,  


Eric yeah, but I don't have an app, but I don't do, do these practices. But I'm still very conscious of that fact that I'm not, I'm not unitary. Yeah.  
'''Eric:'''  Yeah, but I don't have an app, but I don't do, do these practices. But I'm still very conscious of that fact that I'm not, I'm not unitary. Yeah.  


Sam No, I mean that if you follow that a little bit further, that becomes very interesting because you're not, but that doesn't mean you, there's not a, there's no norm you wanted to aspire to follow.
'''Sam:'''  No, I mean that if you follow that a little bit further, that becomes very interesting because you're not, but that doesn't mean you, there's not a, there's no norm you wanted to aspire to follow.


'''Sam:'''        01:30:53      Right. Like you can be, there are faces of your mind, you can prefer to others and you can, and there's also something that happens when you're, when you cease to be taken in by your, your different selves and all these different modes, right. To the, to the normal degree. Then you can actually, then there's a kind of freedom to navigate to a kind of a happier, conversation.
'''Sam:'''        01:30:53      Right. Like you can be, there are faces of your mind, you can prefer to others and you can, and there's also something that happens when you're, when you cease to be taken in by your, your different selves and all these different modes, right. To the, to the normal degree. Then you can actually, then there's a kind of freedom to navigate to a kind of a happier, conversation.


Eric But there is some way in which what you're talking about is that one of your parliaments of selves is that your meta-self, which you're probably getting as close to identifying with unitarity as anything else.  
'''Eric:'''  But there is some way in which what you're talking about is that one of your parliaments of selves is that your meta-self, which you're probably getting as close to identifying with unitarity as anything else.  


Sam Well, it's just, there is, the more you..
'''Sam:'''  Well, it's just, there is, the more you..


Eric The thing that supervises the sub-routines, you would probably call Sam Harris.  
'''Eric:'''  The thing that supervises the sub-routines, you would probably call Sam Harris.  


Sam Well, I would, it's, it's more diaphanous and that may ultimately, it's, there's consciousness. I mean, the only thing that can supervise anything is, or be aware of anything or experience anything is what I'm calling consciousness.
'''Sam:'''  Well, I would, it's, it's more diaphanous and that may ultimately, it's, there's consciousness. I mean, the only thing that can supervise anything is, or be aware of anything or experience anything is what I'm calling consciousness.


'''Sam:'''        01:31:52      Now, that's not when you really pay attention to what that's like. It doesn't actually answer to the, to the name I or me. I mean, it really is just, it's just this open space in which everything's appearing, including thoughts and intentions and desires and emotions. And there, it really is a, a cacophony, but the cacophony changes the more you fall back to this position of just witnessing the show. Right. And so, you know, it's like you're, you're I guess, let me give one analogy that's actually fairly apropos is the difference between dreaming and lucid dreaming. Right? The more you lucid a dream, the more you actually can kinda change your dreams. I mean, that's what it is.  
'''Sam:'''        01:31:52      Now, that's not when you really pay attention to what that's like. It doesn't actually answer to the, to the name I or me. I mean, it really is just, it's just this open space in which everything's appearing, including thoughts and intentions and desires and emotions. And there, it really is a, a cacophony, but the cacophony changes the more you fall back to this position of just witnessing the show. Right. And so, you know, it's like you're, you're I guess, let me give one analogy that's actually fairly apropos is the difference between dreaming and lucid dreaming. Right? The more you lucid a dream, the more you actually can kinda change your dreams. I mean, that's what it is.  


Eric It builds the point.
'''Eric:''' It builds the point.  
 
Sam Yeah. But you're still, you know, there's a consequence to being lucid and in your, and being perpetually lost in thought being perpetually, being identified...
 
Eric Of not noticing,
 
Sam Not noticing, thought as thought, being identified with every intention that that surfaces in the mind is really deeply analogous to be, to being asleep and dreaming and not knowing you're dreaming.


'''Sam:''' Yeah. But you're still, you know, there's a consequence to being lucid and in your, and being perpetually lost in thought being perpetually, being identified...


'''Eric:''' Of not noticing.


'''Sam:'''  Not noticing, thought as thought, being identified with every intention that that surfaces in the mind is really deeply analogous to be, to being asleep and dreaming and not knowing you're dreaming.
'''Sam:'''        01:33:03      Right. Whether you're in a situation you're not recognizing.  
'''Sam:'''        01:33:03      Right. Whether you're in a situation you're not recognizing.  


Eric Well, it's interesting because sometimes I can't actually use the information. So, for example, when you went into the, don't we want the best and brightest thing, right? I thought, oh my God, Sam is going to drag me there. And that way he's to believe, well, no, because, because there is no thing called xenophillic restrictionism, which is what most of us are. Certainly, I am in, in my belief structure. And the idea that every single news organ is ready to call any restriction, a xenophobe. I'm thinking, oh my God, Sam is dragging me to this place. He doesn't even know it. And I'm starting to get angry and agitated and excited. And there was nothing I could do to actually, I couldn't find any control knob.  
'''Eric:'''  Well, it's interesting because sometimes I can't actually use the information. So, for example, when you went into the, don't we want the best and brightest thing, right? I thought, oh my God, Sam is going to drag me there. And that way he's to believe, well, no, because, because there is no thing called xenophillic restrictionism, which is what most of us are. Certainly, I am in, in my belief structure. And the idea that every single news organ is ready to call any restriction, a xenophobe. I'm thinking, oh my God, Sam is dragging me to this place. He doesn't even know it. And I'm starting to get angry and agitated and excited. And there was nothing I could do to actually, I couldn't find any control knob.  


Sam But so, it did come back to, to earth where you know, something more concrete than pure consciousness.
'''Sam:'''  But so, it did come back to, to earth where you know, something more concrete than pure consciousness.


'''Sam:'''        01:33:59      The, I'm aware of the potential hypocrisy in judging people. I saw, I take, you know, I just kind of shit all over Nassim Taleb. Right. I don't believe in freewill. I know he didn't invent himself. Like there's a place in which I'm totally nonjudgmental of him and these, you know, he can't do otherwise. Right. He's just, he's just being the perfect version of Nassim Taleb as is Donald Trump. Right? Like, that's just it. And in Trump's case, the thing that I'm judgmental, I'm not especially judgmental of him, you know, I mean, he, he seems like a malfunctioning robot to me. Right. He's, he's, he's just that what I'm judgmental of is the larger situation of all of this happening and peop- and half the population seemed to be pretending that it's something optimal about, right.
'''Sam:'''        01:33:59      The, I'm aware of the potential hypocrisy in judging people. I saw, I take, you know, I just kind of shit all over Nassim Taleb. Right. I don't believe in freewill. I know he didn't invent himself. Like there's a place in which I'm totally nonjudgmental of him and these, you know, he can't do otherwise. Right. He's just, he's just being the perfect version of Nassim Taleb as is Donald Trump. Right? Like, that's just it. And in Trump's case, the thing that I'm judgmental, I'm not especially judgmental of him, you know, I mean, he, he seems like a malfunctioning robot to me. Right. He's, he's, he's just that what I'm judgmental of is the larger situation of all of this happening and peop- and half the population seemed to be pretending that it's something optimal about, right.
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'''Sam:'''        01:34:51      That's like, that's so terrifyingly risky to me that I think it's appropriate to be in touch with the, the outrage module rather than the nonjudgmental, all we're all in and nobody invented, nobody created themselves module. And but I, I pick and choose my moments of outrage and I get off the ride as soon as it's no longer, as soon as I notice there's no reason to be on it.  
'''Sam:'''        01:34:51      That's like, that's so terrifyingly risky to me that I think it's appropriate to be in touch with the, the outrage module rather than the nonjudgmental, all we're all in and nobody invented, nobody created themselves module. And but I, I pick and choose my moments of outrage and I get off the ride as soon as it's no longer, as soon as I notice there's no reason to be on it.  


Eric It's no longer adaptive.  
'''Eric:''' It's no longer adaptive.  


Sam  So, it's like how much time am I getting? So now, like in my use of social media, like I'll get on Twitter, I'll see something outrageous, I'll get triggered by it, but I mean, I'll get off 30 seconds later and it's over. Right? Whereas if I, if I were to do the thing that entangled me, you know, it could, you know, it could take up much more of my life.
'''Sam:''' So, it's like how much time am I getting? So now, like in my use of social media, like I'll get on Twitter, I'll see something outrageous, I'll get triggered by it, but I mean, I'll get off 30 seconds later and it's over. Right? Whereas if I, if I were to do the thing that entangled me, you know, it could, you know, it could take up much more of my life.


'''Eric:'''        01:35:43      So it's very interesting to me that you've gotten off Twitter as you've become more focused on the meditation and mindfulness part of your offering.  
'''Eric:'''        01:35:43      So it's very interesting to me that you've gotten off Twitter as you've become more focused on the meditation and mindfulness part of your offering.  


Sam Right. I mean, I, there's the juxtaposition there may be somewhat accidental, but the, the, the vividness, like it, there was a spell that's been broken for me with respect to social media. Like I, I, I had, and I actually, I had paid lip service to this and just didn't know that it was just lip service, but I had been talking about Twitter and social media generally as a psychological experiment that we were running ours on ourselves to which no one had consented. Right? We just enrolled half of humanity in this thing and we're just, you know, let's see what happens. And it's, it's clearly a having effects that are at best non-optimal right? You know, at worst, you know, catastrophic.
'''Sam:'''  Right. I mean, I, there's the juxtaposition there may be somewhat accidental, but the, the, the vividness, like it, there was a spell that's been broken for me with respect to social media. Like I, I, I had, and I actually, I had paid lip service to this and just didn't know that it was just lip service, but I had been talking about Twitter and social media generally as a psychological experiment that we were running ours on ourselves to which no one had consented. Right? We just enrolled half of humanity in this thing and we're just, you know, let's see what happens. And it's, it's clearly a having effects that are at best non-optimal right? You know, at worst, you know, catastrophic.


'''Sam:'''        01:36:46      And I would, I was talking about this and thinking in these terms, but still totally embedded in, in the activity of, of taking Twitter seriously and, and feeling that it was a professional necessity. And on some level, it was just, it was just sticky enough, you know, emotionally like this is, you know, cause I am getting a lot of my news that way. I'm, I'm following smart people. I want to see what articles they're reading and there's an opportunity for conversation and then somebody like Nassim Taleb says something, you know, outrageously stupid that is, you know, directed at me. Right. And it goes, it's going out to hundreds of thousands of people. And so, you know, it's an opportunity for me to tell him to fuck off. And so, I find some way to say that and this thing begins playing out. And to the degree that I've stepped away, which is like 95% now when I come back and I see, you know, some of my friends I see you, you know, embroiled with, you know, you know Clare Lehman or somebody and it does look like I'm now in touch with the ...
'''Sam:'''        01:36:46      And I would, I was talking about this and thinking in these terms, but still totally embedded in, in the activity of, of taking Twitter seriously and, and feeling that it was a professional necessity. And on some level, it was just, it was just sticky enough, you know, emotionally like this is, you know, cause I am getting a lot of my news that way. I'm, I'm following smart people. I want to see what articles they're reading and there's an opportunity for conversation and then somebody like Nassim Taleb says something, you know, outrageously stupid that is, you know, directed at me. Right. And it goes, it's going out to hundreds of thousands of people. And so, you know, it's an opportunity for me to tell him to fuck off. And so, I find some way to say that and this thing begins playing out. And to the degree that I've stepped away, which is like 95% now when I come back and I see, you know, some of my friends I see you, you know, embroiled with, you know, you know Clare Lehman or somebody and it does look like I'm now in touch with the ...


Eric You saw that get diffused?
'''Eric:'''  You saw that get diffused?


'''Sam:'''        01:37:48      Yeah, no, that, that and I think the skillful diffusal of those conflicts is its own public good that that thing they've tried to maximize and I think you're very good at that.
'''Sam:'''        01:37:48      Yeah, no, that, that and I think the skillful diffusal of those conflicts is its own public good that that thing they've tried to maximize and I think you're very good at that.
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'''Eric:'''    01:37:55      There are people I try to diffuse because I don't think they want the thing diffuse. Like you got into some, you went on this person, nice mangoes, podcasts  
'''Eric:'''    01:37:55      There are people I try to diffuse because I don't think they want the thing diffuse. Like you got into some, you went on this person, nice mangoes, podcasts  


Sam Yeah, that talk about no good deed go unpunished. I did my best to launch that podcast.  
'''Sam:'''  Yeah, that talk about no good deed go unpunished. I did my best to launch that podcast.  


Eric There's something wrong with that account because there's many ways in which it seems quite reasonable.  
'''Eric:'''  There's something wrong with that account because there's many ways in which it seems quite reasonable.  


Sam  Yeah. And then it degraded into mental illness.  
'''Sam:''' Yeah. And then it degraded into mental illness.  


Eric There's a personal, there's a personal nastiness about it that just doesn't let up. Sam  
'''Eric:'''  There's a personal, there's a personal nastiness about it that just doesn't let up.  
  Yeah.  
 
'''Sam:''' Yeah.  


Eric And a lack of charity. And what I find is that there are certain things I can do to slow down that kind of a negative experience. And then there are certain die-hard actors, some of whom are quite polite and charming and funny who just will not, like their thing is they will ride this to the most negative place if they get there. And that sub-community I've been talking about in terms of we have diversity and inclusion, which I'm willing to say is a good thing.
'''Eric:'''  And a lack of charity. And what I find is that there are certain things I can do to slow down that kind of a negative experience. And then there are certain die-hard actors, some of whom are quite polite and charming and funny who just will not, like their thing is they will ride this to the most negative place if they get there. And that sub-community I've been talking about in terms of we have diversity and inclusion, which I'm willing to say is a good thing.


'''Eric:'''    01:39:02      And then it needs a different function, which is interoperability and exclusion because there are certain people who can't be at the table for a conversation if it's going to progress. And, because their, their interest is in derailing. And now I got into some weird thing just now. Do you know the singer Billy Bragg?
'''Eric:'''    01:39:02      And then it needs a different function, which is interoperability and exclusion because there are certain people who can't be at the table for a conversation if it's going to progress. And, because their, their interest is in derailing. And now I got into some weird thing just now. Do you know the singer Billy Bragg?


Sam Ah no,
'''Sam:'''  Ah no.


Eric  He's like a progressive, he's kind of like a punk Arlo Guthrie. Woody Guthrie rather. Yeah. And like he turns out he wrote a book and he's talking about Eric Weinstein an investment banker who is a free speech, you know, champion, won't meet with, I don't know, some whole, he's got a whole story in his mind.  
'''Eric:''' He's like a progressive, he's kind of like a punk Arlo Guthrie. Woody Guthrie rather. Yeah. And like he turns out he wrote a book and he's talking about Eric Weinstein an investment banker who is a free speech, you know, champion, won't meet with, I don't know, some whole, he's got a whole story in his mind.  


Sam  And he so he took a shot at you and in his book?  
'''Sam:''' And he so he took a shot at you and in his book?  


Eric  He went on Sam Cedar's program.  
'''Eric:''' He went on Sam Cedar's program.  


Sam  Oh, well there's a venue that is not going to select for honest opinions.  
'''Sam:''' Oh, well there's a venue that is not going to select for honest opinions.  


Eric I spoke to Sam. Look, there's a problem with the Saul Alinsky thing where Saul, you know, Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, the focus on ridicule.
'''Eric:''' I spoke to Sam. Look, there's a problem with the Saul Alinsky thing where Saul, you know, Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, the focus on ridicule.


'''Eric:'''    01:40:01      I think it's hard to remember like Country Joe and the Fish was ridiculing a bad war in terms that are ridiculous. You've now got a group of people who if a mathematician says, you know that in in different arithmetics you could have an equation like two plus three equals one. And so, then you get somebody saying, "I don't know what they're smoking over there at Princeton, but..." yeah, well that's ridicule but you're ridiculing something that you straw man and didn't understand because the person actually was making sense. And so, what I see is that the left and in particular the Sam Cedar crowd has a  
'''Eric:'''    01:40:01      I think it's hard to remember like Country Joe and the Fish was ridiculing a bad war in terms that are ridiculous. You've now got a group of people who if a mathematician says, you know that in in different arithmetics you could have an equation like two plus three equals one. And so, then you get somebody saying, "I don't know what they're smoking over there at Princeton, but..." yeah, well that's ridicule but you're ridiculing something that you straw man and didn't understand because the person actually was making sense. And so, what I see is that the left and in particular the Sam Cedar crowd has a  


Sam Doing that with abandon.
'''Sam:''' Doing that with abandon.


Eric Well, it's willing to do two separate things. Sam is quite willing like there's this whole thing, like, will you talk to Sam Cedar, will you debate Sam Cedar?  
'''Eric:''' Well, it's willing to do two separate things. Sam is quite willing like there's this whole thing, like, will you talk to Sam Seder, will you debate Sam Seder?  


'''Eric:'''        01:40:54      My feeling is I would debate part of Sam Cedar, the part that just is focused on the ideas, but the part that is kind of like nasty and ridiculing and doing the Alinsky thing. I don't know what to do with it. I'm not interested. I've spoken to Sam Cedar on the phone is perfectly reasonable. Made sense to me. We disagreed on positions, but...
'''Eric:'''        01:40:54      My feeling is I would debate part of Sam Seder, the part that just is focused on the ideas, but the part that is kind of like nasty and ridiculing and doing the Alinsky thing, I don't know what to do with it. I'm not interested. I've spoken to Sam Seder on the phone is perfectly reasonable. Made sense to me. We disagreed on positions, but...


Sam  Well, the line that gets crossed for me always with these guys, and again it's, it's disproportionately on the left, is the line of conscious dishonesty, I mean, your brother's aphorism, bad faith changes everything.  
'''Sam:''' Well, the line that gets crossed for me always with these guys, and again it's, it's disproportionately on the left, is the line of conscious dishonesty, I mean, your brother's aphorism, "bad faith changes everything".  


Bad faith changes everything.  
'''Eric:'''  "Bad faith changes everything".  


Sam And these guys are in bad faith. They know they're lying about, in my case, my views, my actual beliefs and  
'''Sam:''' And these guys are in bad faith. They know they're lying about, in my case, my views, my actual beliefs and  


Eric Not all of them.   
'''Eric:''' Not all of them.   


Sam  Don't they? There's just too much information.  
'''Sam:''' Don't they? There's just too much information.  


Eric  Well, David Pakman...  
'''Eric:''' Well, David Pakman...  


Sam  No, David Pacman's fine. I just did his podcast. Yeah, I know.
'''Sam:''' No, David Pakman's fine. I just did his podcast. Yeah, I know.


'''Eric:'''        01:41:49      But David Pechman said some pretty non charitable things and some parts that seemed kind of ridiculing
'''Eric:'''        01:41:49      But David Pechman said some pretty non charitable things and some parts that seemed kind of ridiculing


Sam  Of me?
'''Sam:''' Of me?


Eric You, me, other people,
'''Eric:'''  You, me, other people.


Sam  I haven't, whatever. I haven't, I have never seen him  
'''Sam:''' I haven't, whatever. I haven't, I have never seen him .


Eric He's pretty good
'''Eric:'''  He's pretty good.


Sam  I've never seen him misrepresent my views and I think, I mean I, again, I don't know him, I just did his podcast once, but he seems like he seems like somebody who, if I said, listen, you've got me wrong here, that would matter. And he would, he would make an effort to get me right.  
'''Sam:''' I've never seen him misrepresent my views and I think, I mean I, again, I don't know him, I just did his podcast once, but he seems like he seems like somebody who, if I said, listen, you've got me wrong here, that would matter. And he would, he would make an effort to get me right.  


Eric And that's the thing, which is the problem that we have increasingly is that the tactics that are being used in what are called progressive circles have been confused with the content. So that is, the objections to the vehicle, which might be Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, is conflated with...
'''Eric:'''  And that's the thing, which is the problem that we have increasingly is that the tactics that are being used in what are called progressive circles have been confused with the content. So that is, the objections to the vehicle, which might be Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, is conflated with...


Sam  It is a totally unethical program for smearing people dishonestly.
'''Sam:''' It is a totally unethical program for smearing people dishonestly.


'''Eric:'''        01:42:48      Well, no, it's no, it's, an immoral technology...
'''Eric:'''        01:42:48      Well, no, it's no, it's, an immoral technology...


Sam  No it's, no it's an ends justify the means.  
'''Sam:''' No it's, no it's an ends justify the means.  


Eric  That's the big problem on the left.  
'''Eric:''' That's the big problem on the left.  


Sam  Yeah. So, but that ethic is, is flawed, right? So, like, so for instance, I mean like with me and Trump, like there's nobody who...  
'''Sam:''' Yeah. So, but that ethic is, is flawed, right? So, like, so for instance, I mean like with me and Trump, like there's nobody who...  


Eric  You don't like the guy.
'''Eric:''' You don't like the guy.


Sam  ...who denigrates Trump as avidly as I do, but I am super careful to be honest. Right? So, like I, it's not that you can't even, you can smear him with his fair.
'''Sam:''' ...who denigrates Trump as avidly as I do, but I am super careful to be honest. Right? So, like I, it's not that you can't even, you can smear him with his fair.


Eric  Because you can be Sam, I mean, the problem was solved...
Eric  Because you can be Sam, I mean, the problem was solved...
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