23: Agnes Callard - Courage, Meta-cognitive detachment and their limits: Difference between revisions

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-Philosopher and University of Chicago Professor Agnes Callard sits down with Eric on this episode of the portal. Agnes is a champion of the philosophical tradition of attempting to detach the capacity for inquiry and reason from the fog of feelings and societal taboos that often keep us from delving deeper into the questions that animate our lives.
+{{EpisodeInfoBox
+|title=Courage, Meta-cognitive detachment and their limits
+|image=[[File:The-portal-podcast-cover-art.jpg]]
+|guest=[[Agnes Callard]]
+|length=02:11:03
+|releasedate=24 February 2020
+|youtubedate=11 March 2020
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+|customdata1=[https://omny.fm/shows/the-portal/23-agnes-callard-courage-meta-cognitive-detachment Listen]
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+<!-- |download=[https://rss.art19.com/episodes/51cea7f0-8a31-4cc2-97c6-a94724e86b59.mp3 Download] -->
+|youtube=[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJtA-_pBg8g Watch]
+|link4title=Portal Blog
+|link4=[https://theportal.group/23-prof-agnes-callard-courage-meta-cognitive-detachment-and-their-limits/ Read]
+|prev=ep22
+|next=ep24
+}}
+Philosopher and University of Chicago Professor [[Agnes Callard]] sits down with [[Eric Weinstein|Eric]] on this episode of The Portal. Agnes is a champion of the philosophical tradition of attempting to detach the capacity for inquiry and reason from the fog of feelings and societal taboos that often keep us from delving deeper into the questions that animate our lives.
 Agnes began this unusual back and forth by writing an article about status negotiation in first meetings shortly after the pair first met. Eric and Agnes then use the opportunity of this episode to continue this line of thought by exploring the limits of courage and meta-cognition within the examined life of a modern Philosopher. This results in a real-time exploration by two people who mutually respect each other as to whether they can actually negotiate a detached discussion in real time on the very issues of status, feeling, and taboo that may divide them and/or arise between them.
@@ Line 5: / Line 27: @@
 As Agnes has written thoughtfully about the many layers of anger, the conversation culminates by exploring dyadic feelings of hurt and indignation with which we all struggle and suffer in our relationships. Ultimately the two finish this experimental conversation with good cheer, together with a wish to continue the discussion at a later date under continuing mutual fondness and admiration.
-<span class="button">[[ep22 | Previous Episode]]</span> <span class="button">[https://art19.com/shows/the-portal/episodes/51cea7f0-8a31-4cc2-97c6-a94724e86b59 Listen to Episode 23]</span>
+{{#widget:OmnyFMEpisode|show=the-portal|slug=23-agnes-callard-courage-meta-cognitive-detachment|width=65%}}
+{{#widget:YouTube|id=hJtA-_pBg8g}}
+[[File:ThePortal-Ep23 AgnesCallard-EricWeinstein.png|600px|thumb|Eric Weinstein (right) talking with Agnes Callard (left) on episode 23 of The Portal Podcast]]
-[[All Episodes]]
+== Sponsors ==
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+== Transcript ==
+{{no transcript blurb}}
+=== Incomplete Transcript ===
+[Intro Music]
+E - Hello, you've found The Portal. I'm your host Eric Weinstien and today I am here with University of Chicago Professor of Philosophy, Agnes Callard.
+A - Hi.
+E - Agnes welcome!
+A - Thank you.
+E - I want to talk to you about everything,
+A - Okay.
+E - Do you mind?
+A - No.
+E -  So, you just had an interesting and bizarre gambit, I didn't know you were coming out to southern California and you said to me that after a meeting we had in your office at the University of Chicago, "Hey, you should take a look at this article I wrote partially based on our meeting." And the article is one about negotiating initial meetings and what are all the layers of dynamics that are going on when two people collide for the first time.
+A - Yeah, I think that when two people collide for the first time I guess there are sort of two things at the base level that are happening. One of them is they are trying to figure out how to get along, how to cooperate, and the other is they are trying to take the measure of one another. And those activities aren't totally separate from one another.
+E - And, I've noticed a pattern with you which is that you take great delight in talking about the things that many of us do sort of naturally or unconsciously. It might be very uncomfortable to promote to full consciousness so that you can use your metacognitive facility to interrogate and dissect what is going on many many different levels; Some of them philosophical, some of them rooted in biology, some of them maybe with allusions to literature. When you and I met, were you aware of what you were going through in real time or did it come to you later that this was going to be grist for an article.
+A - Oh, totally later. My mind was completely on another article I was working on.
+E - Oh, so you weren't concentrating on when we were meeting, on our meeting?
+A - No, not really. Oh, I mean, I think that a lot of the time I feel like a lot of the thinking that I do is like unpacking thinking I did earlier but wasn't realizing I was doing. Or something like that. So, like...
+[02:29] E - It's hard with this language when you have to say "I" when you're actually realizing you have so many different processes. Okay, keep going.
+A - Right, I guess maybe one common thread.. I do like to, yeah maybe I kind of have an affinity towards the provocative or something but maybe at a deeper level I think that there is just, when we talk about ourselves / when we think about our lives there are all these sort of cracks in the facade of, like, who we take ourselves to be and how we present ourselves. But the thing is, like, that we have kind of convinced ourselves that the cracks are part of the design because we have been looking at them so long, right? Like, Ooh look what a pretty pattern. And I want
 == Transcript of the last 20 minutes ==
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 E - That hurt me. What are your reactions to that? I think that the show is quite a bit better, particularly one or two of the episodes that you listened to, I think are extraordinary and it made me feel that you could not possibly have seen what it is that I saw in those one or two episodes, because it would have been worth 10 hours of your time because it was so rare. Now, I could be wrong so it's very interesting that, of course,  I have a vested interest so I'm budgeting something for my own distortion. I'm also thinking about what the feedback I've had, how specific the feedback has been
-A - u-hu
+A - u-huh
 E - made me question whether or not  I viewed you as a reliable receiver of the content of the show. Had I over-invested in my image of you as the person capable of processing what we're doing here. And it made me wonder whether or not I'm doing something outside of the academy which the academy sort of realises is some cheap version of intellectualism and story telling and narrative that would never survive in a rigorous academic context. So I went through a bunch of self doubt, accusation, negative feeling, question and uncertainty about you , myself and the project that we were going to sit down and create an episode together.
@@ Line 174: / Line 234: @@
 A - thank you.
+[[Category:The Portal Podcast]]
+[[Category:Podcast Episodes]]
+[[Category:Interview Episodes]]
+[[Category:YouTube]]
+[[Category:Video]]
+[[Category:Audio]]