6,480
edits
15: Garrett Lisi - My Arch-nemesis, Myself: Difference between revisions
15: Garrett Lisi - My Arch-nemesis, Myself (edit)
Revision as of 01:54, 20 December 2020
, 20 December 2020no edit summary
No edit summary |
|||
| (11 intermediate revisions by 5 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
== | {{EpisodeInfoBox | ||
[[ | |title=My Arch-nemesis, Myself | ||
|image=[[File:The-portal-podcast-cover-art.jpg]] | |||
|guest=[[Garrett Lisi]] | |||
|length=01:45:58 | |||
|releasedate=6 December 2019 | |||
|youtubedate=3 February 2020 | |||
|customlabel1= | |||
|customdata1= | |||
|customlabel2= | |||
|customdata2= | |||
|customlabel3= | |||
|customdata3= | |||
|customlabel4= | |||
|customdata4= | |||
|art19=[https://art19.com/shows/the-portal/episodes/34b7e123-41aa-4bf3-8c35-2e34d2226cd2 Listen] | |||
|download=[https://rss.art19.com/episodes/34b7e123-41aa-4bf3-8c35-2e34d2226cd2.mp3 Download] | |||
|youtube=[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_uiqjO1IEU Watch] | |||
|link4title=Blog Post | |||
|link4=[https://theportal.group/15-garrett-lisi-my-arch-nemesis-myself/ Read] | |||
|prev=ep14 | |||
|next=ep16 | |||
}} | |||
[[Garrett Lisi]], the so called "Surf Bum with a Theory of Everything (or T.O.E.)", is a PhD theoretical physicist who has refused to be captured by the theoretical physics community. By making shrewd investments, he has avoided holding meaningful employment for his entire adult life. Instead, he lives in Maui and travels the world chasing the perfect wave. | [[Garrett Lisi]], the so called "Surf Bum with a Theory of Everything (or T.O.E.)", is a PhD theoretical physicist who has refused to be captured by the theoretical physics community. By making shrewd investments, he has avoided holding meaningful employment for his entire adult life. Instead, he lives in Maui and travels the world chasing the perfect wave. | ||
| Line 9: | Line 31: | ||
The discussion is rough but a fairly accurate depiction of scientific relationships belonging to a type that is generally not shown to the public. This may be uncomfortable for those who have been habituated to NOVA, The Elegant Universe, or other shows produced for mass consumption. We apologize in advance. | The discussion is rough but a fairly accurate depiction of scientific relationships belonging to a type that is generally not shown to the public. This may be uncomfortable for those who have been habituated to NOVA, The Elegant Universe, or other shows produced for mass consumption. We apologize in advance. | ||
{{#widget:Art19Episode|show=the-portal|id=34b7e123-41aa-4bf3-8c35-2e34d2226cd2|width=56%}} | |||
[[File:ThePortal-Ep15 GarrettLisi-EricWeinstein.png|600px|thumb|Eric Weinstein (right) talking with Garrett Lisi (left) on episode 15 of The Portal Podcast]] | |||
== Sponsors == | == Sponsors == | ||
* Skillshare: Get two months free when you sign up at http://Skillshare.com/PORTAL | * Skillshare: Get two months free when you sign up at http://Skillshare.com/PORTAL | ||
* Wine Access: Get $100 off your first purchase of $250 or more at http://Wineaccess.com/PORTAL | * Wine Access: Get $100 off your first purchase of $250 or more at http://Wineaccess.com/PORTAL | ||
| Line 26: | Line 44: | ||
== References in the Episode == | == References in the Episode == | ||
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtyNMlXN-sw YouTube: Sidney Coleman, Quantum Mechanics in Your Face (1994)] | * [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtyNMlXN-sw YouTube: Sidney Coleman, Quantum Mechanics in Your Face (1994)] | ||
== Transcript == | == Transcript == | ||
About Garrett Lisi: | About Garrett Lisi: | ||
| Line 142: | Line 158: | ||
15: | 15: | ||
L - yeah, and it's stunning just to what degree that failed. | |||
W - Ok, so say more? | |||
well the the String Theory unification program - the idea that this description of all fundamental particles and gravity - in our entire universe - would come from a model based on strings vibrating and other higher dimensions. I mean that this unification program has failed. The vast majority of the high-energy physics community has been working on it for over 30 years and they've utterly failed to deliver on that promise despite the high hopes and promises | L - well the the String Theory unification program - the idea that this description of all fundamental particles and gravity - in our entire universe - would come from a model based on strings vibrating and other higher dimensions. I mean that this unification program has failed. The vast majority of the high-energy physics community has been working on it for over 30 years and they've utterly failed to deliver on that promise despite the high hopes and promises | ||
W - well, and this has to do - and again we can sort of do a small synopsis of the field - the idea was the original hopes had been built around an idealized point particle concept where hard little balls were kind of the naive model of particles then you had to smear them out and do waves on waves from that point particle concept called second quantization or quantum field theory and string theory said no the fundamental unit should never have been a hard little ball to begin with it should have been modelled by something that was an "as if string" obviously and it wasn't string made out of atoms it was some sort of mathematical version of | W - well, and this has to do - and again we can sort of do a small synopsis of the field - the idea was the original hopes had been built around an idealized point particle concept where hard little balls were kind of the naive model of particles then you had to smear them out and do waves on waves from that point particle concept called second quantization or quantum field theory and string theory said no the fundamental unit should never have been a hard little ball to begin with it should have been modelled by something that was an "as if string" obviously and it wasn't string made out of atoms it was some sort of mathematical version of | ||
| Line 161: | Line 176: | ||
L - like agiant rolling what kind of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katamari_Damacy Katamari Damacy] where it's just collecting everything that it touches and making it part of itself | L - like agiant rolling what kind of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katamari_Damacy Katamari Damacy] where it's just collecting everything that it touches and making it part of itself | ||
W - that's right and in fact the claim was if we find something that isn't | W - that's right and in fact the claim was if we find something that isn't string theory we'll just find some way of including it and call it string theory | ||
L - right | L - right | ||
| Line 171: | Line 186: | ||
L - I certainly encountered a lack of nourishment when I graduated in the 90s and I wasn't interested in strings but I was interested in high energy physics | L - I certainly encountered a lack of nourishment when I graduated in the 90s and I wasn't interested in strings but I was interested in high energy physics | ||
W - well I think almost everybody was in that position that that is really the | W - well I think almost everybody was in that position that that is really the founding crime for me in the string revolution. It was the desire to say that everyone who is not part of us as an idiot | ||
L - yeah yeah. That's above and beyond normal physicist arrogance | L - yeah yeah. That's above and beyond normal physicist arrogance | ||
| Line 179: | Line 194: | ||
1) one is that this is the closest we get, responsibly, to asking why are we here what is it that we're made of. It is the thing that would best substitute for a religion if you were able to understand what it was. | 1) one is that this is the closest we get, responsibly, to asking why are we here what is it that we're made of. It is the thing that would best substitute for a religion if you were able to understand what it was. | ||
2) the second thing is is that it appears to be the secret powering our economy that very few people have really fully understood. It gave us the World Wide Web the semiconductor the electron shells the generated chemistry, (L - nuclear power), nuclear power, nuclear weapons, communications technology - electromagnetic, you know, Wi-Fi what have you. If you want | 2) the second thing is is that it appears to be the secret powering our economy that very few people have really fully understood. It gave us the World Wide Web the semiconductor the electron shells the generated chemistry, (L - nuclear power), nuclear power, nuclear weapons, communications technology - electromagnetic, you know, Wi-Fi what have you. If you want, and invented - theoretical physics - more or less created molecular biology. | ||
L - that's probably a bit of a stretch but the other certainly aren't so yeah | L - that's probably a bit of a stretch but the other certainly aren't so yeah | ||
| Line 205: | Line 220: | ||
and I can also make a different case for mathematics which is that physics is but one example of a universe we don't know if there are other universes that can could be (conceived) | and I can also make a different case for mathematics which is that physics is but one example of a universe we don't know if there are other universes that can could be (conceived) | ||
L - so so biology I mean it's it's I I agree it's intricate and and it can be a pure pursuit but it's not pure in the sense that so much of the foundations of biology are somewhat arbitrary like whether it you know DNA | L - so so biology I mean it's it's I I agree it's intricate and and it can be a pure pursuit but it's not pure in the sense that so much of the foundations of biology are somewhat arbitrary like whether it you know DNA a helix is gonna spiral to the left or the right and and and what its chemical components are precisely that might vary other planets you know other civilizations' biologies could be different | ||
W - (you can) make a decent argument that systems of selective pressures as described by Darwin and Wallace might be conserved even if you had didn't have carbon based life | |||
L - there will be convergent evolution of course sure but but the details will be slightly different so if you're studying biology by the time you get up to something like cells or animals it's gonna be wildly different in different different places in the in the galaxy alright whereas whereas physics is the same everywhere okay it's it's independent of biology and it's independent of humanity and it's I think and then when you go to mathematics mathematics the pursuit of mathematics like how things get proved and how structures get built up through axioms that are then proved it's a it's a larger playing field than physics. So within that huge arena of possible mathematical structures okay we see appear to live in one mathematical structure, so I mean a physicist only has to focus on the the mathematics that we that describes reality | |||
W - and I by the way share your intuition then in a certain sense this is the best and most interesting place to play in part because there's this very weird feature that we've seemingly unearthed about the physical universe which is that it unexpectedly has this bizarrely good taste (L - yeah) about what to care about within it's as if you let it loose in the mathematical jewelry store in it it selects only the finest pieces | |||
W - and I by the way | |||
L - yeah yeah and we have to wonder if that's you know is that just our human take on it because our human aesthetics have evolved within this beautiful world in the universe so, is it that I mean [[Douglas Adams]] described the [[Anthropic Principle|anthropic principle]] as a puddle of water right and thinking it's like wow this "this this hole I'm in is just perfectly formed to my shape alright isn't it wonderful how it just fits me so perfectly and it's so comfortable here just like it was made for me". Well, it's like, no the puddle got there and filled the shape of the the hole I mean the water got there and filled that shape and as humans we ended up here and we filled this niche and our aesthetic taste was shaped by what's around us including the the mathematics that underlies the physics of this universe and so when we look at the universe you might say "oh no maybe it's just our tastes evolved within this universe, so this is why we find physics aesthetically pleasing" | L - yeah yeah and we have to wonder if that's you know is that just our human take on it because our human aesthetics have evolved within this beautiful world in the universe so, is it that I mean [[Douglas Adams]] described the [[Anthropic Principle|anthropic principle]] as a puddle of water right and thinking it's like wow this "this this hole I'm in is just perfectly formed to my shape alright isn't it wonderful how it just fits me so perfectly and it's so comfortable here just like it was made for me". Well, it's like, no the puddle got there and filled the shape of the the hole I mean the water got there and filled that shape and as humans we ended up here and we filled this niche and our aesthetic taste was shaped by what's around us including the the mathematics that underlies the physics of this universe and so when we look at the universe you might say "oh no maybe it's just our tastes evolved within this universe, so this is why we find physics aesthetically pleasing" | ||
| Line 231: | Line 238: | ||
W - I mean I think this is so cowardly | W - I mean I think this is so cowardly | ||
L - I know I agree and that and right like I have to wonder about it I have to I mean I understand | L - I know I agree and that and right like I have to wonder about it I have to I mean I understand (W - we have to pay lip service) you know that's not just lip service I think about this I mean I think I mean is it really my proclivities have been shaped by my environment in order to think this because I have to question everything all the time (W -sure) mostly cuz I don't talk to enough other people but but also it's because you know yeah when you're questioning things and you're delving with fundamental building blocks you want to make sure as you build things up that you have things right and in looking at the fundamental pieces of physics you know the fundamental mathematical physics I really think that the mathematical pieces as you say are the ones that are extraordinarily beautiful and it's not just my aesthetic taste has been shaped by evolution that causes me to think that I really think objectively these are very pretty mathematical objects underlying our physical reality | ||
W - yeah I think we just lack the courage to say what this appears to be which is there is something that we do not understand about the universe in which it is selected for the most mysterious, most beautiful stuff with which to write what we - I mean - with the closest thing we have to source code we don't we're not at the source code yet we're not quite at that layer | W - yeah I think we just lack the courage to say what this appears to be which is there is something that we do not understand about the universe in which it is selected for the most mysterious, most beautiful stuff with which to write what we - I mean - with the closest thing we have to source code we don't we're not at the source code yet we're not quite at that layer | ||
| Line 251: | Line 258: | ||
W - Ladies form a single-file line | W - Ladies form a single-file line | ||
L - ...there's evidence I mean there in our in our understanding of physics as we've learned more particles yeah the fundamental particles we've learned about appear to be filling out a complete set. I mean we've, you know, when you when you predict that a Tau quark should exist all right know that a Tau Lepton should exist, yeah, or you figure out that you know it completes this | L - ...there's evidence I mean there in our in our understanding of physics as we've learned more particles yeah the fundamental particles we've learned about appear to be filling out a complete set. I mean we've, you know, when you when you predict that a Tau quark should exist all right know that a Tau Lepton should exist, yeah, or you figure out that you know it completes this set, there's this third generation - it's complete right so we seem to be completing our set a fundamental particles | ||
W - SO we have three sets of Lego yeah right the first generation, second generation and third generation of matter and all the pieces in each generation are mirrored in the other two generations just | W - SO we have three sets of Lego yeah right the first generation, second generation and third generation of matter and all the pieces in each generation are mirrored in the other two generations just at different mass scales. So far that's what it looks like | ||
L - well it's not just so far it's like whether we have we have reasons to know that there aren't there aren't more from from how the Big Bang sent matter loose in the universe, we know that there aren't more than three generations up | L - well it's not just so far it's like whether we have we have reasons to know that there aren't there aren't more from from how the Big Bang sent matter loose in the universe, we know that there aren't more than three generations up to a certain very high energy | ||
W - well we've known a lot of things Garrett that have turned out to be wrong | W - well we've known a lot of things Garrett that have turned out to be wrong | ||
| Line 261: | Line 268: | ||
L - well but this is really filling out a pretty complete pattern | L - well but this is really filling out a pretty complete pattern | ||
W - I don't dispute but I just | W - I don't dispute but I just | ||
L - except for this minor point of dark matter still being completely unknown for the most part | L - except for this minor point of dark matter still being completely unknown for the most part | ||
| Line 269: | Line 276: | ||
L - right | L - right | ||
31: | |||
!!Spinors | !!Spinors | ||
| Line 277: | Line 284: | ||
L - right I mean when you're... basically when physicists more or less completed that what's called the standard model of particle physics, right, you have you have the the known forces in physics like the electromagnetic force, the weak force and the strong force as well as the force of gravity and then you have the the matter particles which are [[Electron|electrons]] and [[Quark|quarks]] and [[Neutrino|neutrinos]] and and other generations of these that form you know what are called the [[Fermions|fermions]] okay and these are called the matter particles and then they have mass because of the interaction with the [[Higgs Boson|Higgs boson]] right which is sort of... | L - right I mean when you're... basically when physicists more or less completed that what's called the standard model of particle physics, right, you have you have the the known forces in physics like the electromagnetic force, the weak force and the strong force as well as the force of gravity and then you have the the matter particles which are [[Electron|electrons]] and [[Quark|quarks]] and [[Neutrino|neutrinos]] and and other generations of these that form you know what are called the [[Fermions|fermions]] okay and these are called the matter particles and then they have mass because of the interaction with the [[Higgs Boson|Higgs boson]] right which is sort of... | ||
W - | W - that's not going to make sense to people | ||
L - it's not alright but anyway the the force particles behave differently as elementary particles under rotations than the matter particles all right. so these matter particles, they you have to basically rotate them 720 degrees to return them to their original state. Whereas most objects you rotate it and you rotate it 360 degrees and get back to where you started all right but spinors are different right and they they behave in a very specific way and there's a there's a very specific way of describing them mathematically but it's described in an unusual way. It's described as a as a column of [[Complex Numbers|complex numbers]] or a column matrix if you like that's acted on by a [[Rotation Matrix|rotation matrix]] that tells you specifically how these particles transform under rotation | L - it's not alright but anyway the the force particles behave differently as elementary particles under rotations than the matter particles all right. so these matter particles, they you have to basically rotate them 720 degrees to return them to their original state. Whereas most objects you rotate it and you rotate it 360 degrees and get back to where you started all right but spinors are different right and they they behave in a very specific way and there's a there's a very specific way of describing them mathematically but it's described in an unusual way. It's described as a as a column of [[Complex Numbers|complex numbers]] or a column matrix if you like that's acted on by a [[Rotation Matrix|rotation matrix]] that tells you specifically how these particles transform under rotation | ||
| Line 287: | Line 294: | ||
W - well look I just try to play with something well we're talking about this is this way.. | W - well look I just try to play with something well we're talking about this is this way.. | ||
L - | L - well you can, can I hand it off to you in about 10 seconds? | ||
W - no you finish it out | W - no you finish it out | ||
| Line 300: | Line 307: | ||
L - right I mean it comes out of [[Representation Theory|representation theory]] but that once again that's a fairly high level of mathematics you have to get to to even see that these things exist | L - right I mean it comes out of [[Representation Theory|representation theory]] but that once again that's a fairly high level of mathematics you have to get to to even see that these things exist | ||
W - and for all of the other basic kinds of symmetries we don't have these hidden representations we don't have these hidden spaces that have these bizarre properties it's only for these things called [[Orthogonal Groups|orthogonal groups]] so it's a very special property of real Euclidean rigid space that spinors are there to be found and not only does nature find them, she bases all of matter around the hidden object that can't easily be seen or deduced which is a total mind job right? and the math community has in fact sort of split between people who think hey we can describe these things mathematically so our work is done versus other people who believe there's something about spinors that just it continues to surprise us we don't understand where they came from there a hidden feature of the universe and they keep giving in this very mysterious fashion | W - and for all of the other basic kinds of symmetries we don't have these hidden representations we don't have these hidden spaces that have these bizarre properties it's only for these things called [[Orthogonal Groups|orthogonal groups]] so it's a very special property of real Euclidean rigid space that spinors are there to be found and not only does nature find them, she bases all of matter around the hidden object that can't easily be seen or deduced which is a total mind job right? and the math community has in fact sort of split between people who think hey we can describe these things mathematically so our work is done versus other people who believe there's something about spinors that just it continues to surprise us we don't understand where they came from there a hidden feature of the universe and they keep giving in this very mysterious fashion | ||
L - yeah and the most of the general relativists who came at this problem um just would not want to touch it because it's too far into them and the people came into it from the particle physics side thought it wasn't a problem - it's this field transforms a certain way it seems perfectly well described | L - yeah and the most of the general relativists who came at this problem um just would not want to touch it because it's too far into them and the people came into it from the particle physics side thought it wasn't a problem - it's this field transforms a certain way it seems perfectly well described | ||
| Line 790: | Line 794: | ||
L - thank you Eric | L - thank you Eric | ||
[[Category:Podcast Episodes]] | |||