12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine
Transcript
Unedited Transcript
0:00:07.130,0:00:11.130 hello you found the portal
0:00:09.450,0:00:13.440 I'm your host Eric Weinstein and I'm
0:00:11.130,0:00:18.390 sitting here today with metallic beaut
0:00:13.440,0:00:20.850 uhrin the leader and a founder of the
0:00:18.390,0:00:22.560 etherium world of cryptocurrencies and
0:00:20.850,0:00:24.390 smart contracts welcome to the portal
0:00:22.560,0:00:27.240 thank you it's good to be here Eric it's
0:00:24.390,0:00:28.740 terrific to have you now in general when
0:00:27.240,0:00:30.480 I see you interviewed immediately
0:00:28.740,0:00:32.850 everybody goes straight to crypto
0:00:30.480,0:00:34.350 currencies in a Myriam but one of the
0:00:32.850,0:00:37.469 things that I found fascinating about
0:00:34.350,0:00:40.800 your story is is that in order to be a
0:00:37.469,0:00:44.309 good steward of this new and emerging
0:00:40.800,0:00:46.950 economics you've actually applied
0:00:44.309,0:00:49.620 yourself a great deal to standard and
0:00:46.950,0:00:52.980 regular economic theory and I was
0:00:49.620,0:00:55.710 curious if I understand correctly you
0:00:52.980,0:00:57.719 dropped out of college after a year
0:00:55.710,0:00:59.160 you're self-taught in economics but
0:00:57.719,0:01:01.649 you've taken a real interest in
0:00:59.160,0:01:03.290 understanding how markets and economic
0:01:01.649,0:01:06.450 theory work is that a fair description
0:01:03.290,0:01:10.380 yeah I think so and economics has been
0:01:06.450,0:01:13.500 of an interest for me definitely for a
0:01:10.380,0:01:17.310 long time I mean when I discovered
0:01:13.500,0:01:18.720 Bitcoin back in 2011 and I was still in
0:01:17.310,0:01:21.960 high school it was this kind of
0:01:18.720,0:01:26.070 interesting confluence of ideas that I
0:01:21.960,0:01:28.740 was already pretty attracted to so open
0:01:26.070,0:01:30.299 source culture that was something that a
0:01:28.740,0:01:33.030 and a good friend from high school a
0:01:30.299,0:01:34.920 Christopher all I had already and if
0:01:33.030,0:01:38.369 indoctrinated me with really well I'm
0:01:34.920,0:01:42.540 the of the mathematical in cryptographic
0:01:38.369,0:01:45.240 aspects also libertarianism in Austrian
0:01:42.540,0:01:47.130 economics was kind of the zeitgeist of
0:01:45.240,0:01:49.710 the Bitcoin space at the day and those
0:01:47.130,0:01:53.280 were of ideas that I definitely have
0:01:49.710,0:01:56.250 found philosophically quite attractive
0:01:53.280,0:01:59.009 at that time and you know I was
0:01:56.250,0:02:01.979 definitely curious and I read a bunch of
0:01:59.009,0:02:03.899 books a yeah and read the Austrian
0:02:01.979,0:02:05.969 economics Kanaan because that's what the
0:02:03.899,0:02:09.810 Bitcoin people were kind of talking
0:02:05.969,0:02:12.090 about all day I read some kind of
0:02:09.810,0:02:13.170 behavioral economics literature Ariely
0:02:12.090,0:02:15.030 Kahneman and
0:02:13.170,0:02:17.940 Nakia D&E and all of those people just
0:02:15.030,0:02:22.770 because I knew that I had to read other
0:02:17.940,0:02:26.040 stuff for balance um and yeah and also
0:02:22.770,0:02:28.830 economics itself is a kind in pretty
0:02:26.040,0:02:30.270 mathematical and I've subject well kind
0:02:28.830,0:02:33.840 of right it's it's on the borderline
0:02:30.270,0:02:35.880 because it's kind of both mathematical
0:02:33.840,0:02:37.709 and you got your curves and your
0:02:35.880,0:02:39.569 derivatives and your intersections but
0:02:37.709,0:02:42.500 also it's humanity is right it's like
0:02:39.569,0:02:46.140 really at this intersection of like both
0:02:42.500,0:02:48.330 figuring out how to apply these models
0:02:46.140,0:02:49.709 to and of specific cases and also trying
0:02:48.330,0:02:51.360 to figure out well which models are
0:02:49.709,0:02:53.190 really correct in the first place and
0:02:51.360,0:02:54.989 like the first question you can't answer
0:02:53.190,0:02:57.600 with math but the second question you
0:02:54.989,0:02:58.470 really can't and you need other kinds of
0:02:57.600,0:03:01.769 thinking as well
0:02:58.470,0:03:05.630 well this is an area of my own interest
0:03:01.769,0:03:08.310 because the way I see it economics is
0:03:05.630,0:03:10.560 odd in a way that very few people I
0:03:08.310,0:03:12.690 think have appreciated in that if we
0:03:10.560,0:03:15.269 take what could be argued to be our two
0:03:12.690,0:03:17.970 greatest ideas in scientific scientific
0:03:15.269,0:03:22.079 man let's say one would be sort of the
0:03:17.970,0:03:24.420 geometric dynamics of physics and
0:03:22.079,0:03:27.480 economics has been constructed to be and
0:03:24.420,0:03:30.180 as if physics if you will and on the
0:03:27.480,0:03:31.859 other hand and inherits from the theory
0:03:30.180,0:03:33.690 of selection you could say that markets
0:03:31.859,0:03:35.850 are the continuation of systems of
0:03:33.690,0:03:38.700 selective pressures by other means and
0:03:35.850,0:03:42.329 so what happens when our two greatest
0:03:38.700,0:03:45.420 ideas touch each other and they do it in
0:03:42.329,0:03:47.370 a place which has very bizarre
0:03:45.420,0:03:50.640 properties by my way of thinking that is
0:03:47.370,0:03:52.890 that economists are on the one hand very
0:03:50.640,0:03:54.510 rigorous thinkers and are also very
0:03:52.890,0:03:57.180 susceptible to what we might call
0:03:54.510,0:03:59.940 political economy and distorted thinking
0:03:57.180,0:04:05.850 does that ring true to you yeah
0:03:59.940,0:04:09.900 definitely there's definitely this kind
0:04:05.850,0:04:12.060 of combination of I think for on the one
0:04:09.900,0:04:15.139 hand you have these mathematical
0:04:12.060,0:04:18.930 formulas and on the other hand these
0:04:15.139,0:04:21.810 assumptions and often like the
0:04:18.930,0:04:23.789 assumptions can be pretty pretty well
0:04:21.810,0:04:26.510 hidden and they're kind of difficult to
0:04:23.789,0:04:28.430 see at first glance right in
0:04:26.510,0:04:32.230 like it really can be subtle right so
0:04:28.430,0:04:34.220 like one of the arguments that
0:04:32.230,0:04:35.690 economists tend to put forward is
0:04:34.220,0:04:38.000 basically like mutually beneficial
0:04:35.690,0:04:39.260 transactions are but are beneficial and
0:04:38.000,0:04:43.190 so like we should not interfere with
0:04:39.260,0:04:45.590 them right like if I have a client
0:04:43.190,0:04:47.060 battle and I I want to sell you the
0:04:45.590,0:04:49.430 Klein bottle you're willing to pay five
0:04:47.060,0:04:50.870 dollars then I clearly value it at less
0:04:49.430,0:04:52.340 than five dollars you evaluated more
0:04:50.870,0:04:55.340 than five dollars therefore the
0:04:52.340,0:04:57.350 transactions on net good and like I
0:04:55.340,0:04:58.280 therefore I should give you the bottle
0:04:57.350,0:05:02.180 and you should give me the money and
0:04:58.280,0:05:06.140 that's what we would do but at the the
0:05:02.180,0:05:08.990 reasons why that 10 sometimes breaks
0:05:06.140,0:05:10.640 down liquor in many ways more subtle
0:05:08.990,0:05:13.550 right like first you have monopoly
0:05:10.640,0:05:15.770 issues like if I'm the only person
0:05:13.550,0:05:18.080 selling wine bottles then I might want
0:05:15.770,0:05:19.580 to sell them at a yeah and a higher
0:05:18.080,0:05:22.420 price than you'd be willing to accept
0:05:19.580,0:05:24.920 because I want to extract more value and
0:05:22.420,0:05:27.200 sometimes the things that matter most to
0:05:24.920,0:05:29.360 society aren't things that we can
0:05:27.200,0:05:31.340 transfer between people from one person
0:05:29.360,0:05:33.230 to another like wine bottles but like
0:05:31.340,0:05:35.540 public goods and like the biggest public
0:05:33.230,0:05:39.170 good of all is sort of is the idea right
0:05:35.540,0:05:40.820 and an idea well if I have an idea and I
0:05:39.170,0:05:45.230 give you the idea I still have the idea
0:05:40.820,0:05:47.240 so it's something that once you release
0:05:45.230,0:05:49.070 it it's out there and there isn't this
0:05:47.240,0:05:50.750 kind of property of that so you know
0:05:49.070,0:05:54.470 should we just pause just briefly to
0:05:50.750,0:05:56.450 talk about what a public good is yeah so
0:05:54.470,0:05:58.220 a public good is technically defined
0:05:56.450,0:06:01.250 within economics many people have an
0:05:58.220,0:06:03.490 intuitive idea as something which is as
0:06:01.250,0:06:05.830 you're stating has this property of
0:06:03.490,0:06:09.020 inexhaustibility mm-hm
0:06:05.830,0:06:10.130 and then the other attribute would be
0:06:09.020,0:06:12.920 excludability
0:06:10.130,0:06:14.360 which is non excludability formal sorry
0:06:12.920,0:06:17.180 nuts non excludability
0:06:14.360,0:06:20.630 sorry the the attribute of excludability
0:06:17.180,0:06:24.910 and is used to define a public good so
0:06:20.630,0:06:27.620 if something is inexhaustible and in
0:06:24.910,0:06:30.520 excludable then it has this weird
0:06:27.620,0:06:33.260 property that even hardline economists
0:06:30.520,0:06:35.540 would agree that the market may fail to
0:06:33.260,0:06:39.110 price in fact will fail to price the
0:06:35.540,0:06:39.409 value to society of that object so there
0:06:39.110,0:06:42.169 is an
0:06:39.409,0:06:44.269 mission within economics that there are
0:06:42.169,0:06:49.519 zones of failure right
0:06:44.269,0:06:52.580 well I guess the kind of the big kind of
0:06:49.519,0:06:54.409 rethinking that needs to happen is that
0:06:52.580,0:06:56.719 there is a long been this kind of
0:06:54.409,0:06:58.429 site-geist to that private goods like
0:06:56.719,0:07:00.050 things that I have and if I give it to
0:06:58.429,0:07:01.819 you I don't have it and you have it are
0:07:00.050,0:07:04.729 the norm and public goods are a rare
0:07:01.819,0:07:06.409 exception but like really public goods
0:07:04.729,0:07:08.149 are pretty darn important right like if
0:07:06.409,0:07:11.179 we didn't have public goods then we'd be
0:07:08.149,0:07:12.829 a trading sticks and B and Bear pelts
0:07:11.179,0:07:15.379 and we basically still be cavemen like
0:07:12.829,0:07:18.519 they're basically the like an army would
0:07:15.379,0:07:20.689 be a public yeah yeah and or me well
0:07:18.519,0:07:23.539 armies are interesting cuz there are
0:07:20.689,0:07:25.279 kind of to us like in a medium scale
0:07:23.539,0:07:26.959 context or a public good and in the
0:07:25.279,0:07:28.519 large-scale context or a public bad
0:07:26.959,0:07:30.469 because if everyone's army is we're
0:07:28.519,0:07:31.729 forced to be cut down by a factor of 10
0:07:30.469,0:07:34.579 like we'd all be better off
0:07:31.729,0:07:36.259 so economics is like really subtle that
0:07:34.579,0:07:40.579 way especially once you have kind of two
0:07:36.259,0:07:42.379 layers of scale I'd play sure now one
0:07:40.579,0:07:45.050 thing that I worry a lot about that
0:07:42.379,0:07:48.919 almost nobody seems to join me in is
0:07:45.050,0:07:51.889 that in our mutual world I don't know
0:07:48.919,0:07:54.769 what to call it of people who are
0:07:51.889,0:07:57.019 experimenting with what I would say the
0:07:54.769,0:08:00.199 mainstream would consider far out ideas
0:07:57.019,0:08:03.649 like radical life extension crypto
0:08:00.199,0:08:06.019 currencies is a you know potentially
0:08:03.649,0:08:08.539 being rival risks with sovereign
0:08:06.019,0:08:11.869 currencies but in our world we talk a
0:08:08.539,0:08:14.239 lot about the abundance economy in a
0:08:11.869,0:08:18.110 world of abundance and I'm terrified of
0:08:14.239,0:08:20.599 a world of abundance because one of the
0:08:18.110,0:08:23.629 properties that software has had is that
0:08:20.599,0:08:25.729 it has replaced physical goods and
0:08:23.629,0:08:30.649 services which have these attributes
0:08:25.729,0:08:33.620 they are not public with small files and
0:08:30.649,0:08:36.649 when a small file is not encrypted it
0:08:33.620,0:08:40.659 has the attributes of a public good and
0:08:36.649,0:08:44.480 therefore value and price can can castle
0:08:40.659,0:08:46.850 that's terrifying because then this
0:08:44.480,0:08:49.370 weird thing of markets which allows us
0:08:46.850,0:08:51.559 respite from dictatorship in somebody
0:08:49.370,0:08:52.970 directing our activities and allows us
0:08:51.559,0:08:55.339 to self-direct goes
0:08:52.970,0:08:58.069 away because things can't be priced
0:08:55.339,0:09:00.379 accurately are you do you have any does
0:08:58.069,0:09:03.769 that have any purchase on your thinking
0:09:00.379,0:09:05.779 yeah so and I think give definitely you
0:09:03.769,0:09:08.060 kind of struck at a very important point
0:09:05.779,0:09:11.149 though I think and if my own framing of
0:09:08.060,0:09:14.449 the point is slightly different no I
0:09:11.149,0:09:16.819 think like first of all like you start
0:09:14.449,0:09:18.680 off by think by realizing that kind of
0:09:16.819,0:09:20.149 private property and things is not
0:09:18.680,0:09:23.029 something that fell out of the sky it's
0:09:20.149,0:09:26.000 a social technology right it's that we
0:09:23.029,0:09:30.560 have these kind of norms that basically
0:09:26.000,0:09:34.100 say oh you kid we will create this kind
0:09:30.560,0:09:35.930 of mapping from objects to people and if
0:09:34.100,0:09:37.519 an object as maps to you then you're
0:09:35.930,0:09:38.810 allowed to do basically whatever the
0:09:37.519,0:09:40.550 hell you want with it and other people
0:09:38.810,0:09:41.060 cannot do anything with it without your
0:09:40.550,0:09:44.980 permission
0:09:41.060,0:09:47.240 and if that concept did not exist then
0:09:44.980,0:09:50.149 physical objects would be public goods
0:09:47.240,0:09:51.829 right because like if there's a klein
0:09:50.149,0:09:53.600 bottle over here the Quine bottle would
0:09:51.829,0:09:56.629 be there but like really anyone could
0:09:53.600,0:09:58.759 take it and if you produce wine bottles
0:09:56.629,0:10:00.230 then like you're not producing something
0:09:58.759,0:10:01.699 for yourself you're producing something
0:10:00.230,0:10:04.180 for pretty much different the first
0:10:01.699,0:10:07.370 person who comes along and grabs it and
0:10:04.180,0:10:10.370 so property rights right are this kind
0:10:07.370,0:10:14.000 of social technology that helps make a
0:10:10.370,0:10:15.410 private good economy is tractable and we
0:10:14.000,0:10:17.149 could consider making social
0:10:15.410,0:10:18.769 technologies to make public great
0:10:17.149,0:10:21.309 economies tractable right like the
0:10:18.769,0:10:24.079 existence of public goods by itself is
0:10:21.309,0:10:26.360 and it's not good or bad like arguably
0:10:24.079,0:10:28.040 it's even good because it means that
0:10:26.360,0:10:30.649 people can't cooperate with each other
0:10:28.040,0:10:33.620 on such large scales the bad thing is
0:10:30.649,0:10:35.120 that we don't really have good tools for
0:10:33.620,0:10:37.819 handling it and specifically we don't
0:10:35.120,0:10:42.620 have good tools for handling yet that
0:10:37.819,0:10:45.410 managed to simultaneously avoid both not
0:10:42.620,0:10:48.199 giving good results and like basically
0:10:45.410,0:10:51.230 being centralized in dictatorial and so
0:10:48.199,0:10:53.389 this is where my interest in radical
0:10:51.230,0:10:55.160 exchange comes in so this was this a
0:10:53.389,0:10:57.949 movement that was started by gone while
0:10:55.160,0:11:00.889 a couple of years ago when he wrote this
0:10:57.949,0:11:02.630 a radical markets book and he advanced
0:11:00.889,0:11:04.639 some of his proposals like harberger
0:11:02.630,0:11:05.860 taxes and a quadratic voting were the
0:11:04.639,0:11:09.670 ones that
0:11:05.860,0:11:12.579 and of the most popular and the and of
0:11:09.670,0:11:15.750 the core and if idea behind the ideas
0:11:12.579,0:11:18.160 basically as like let's creates
0:11:15.750,0:11:21.279 structures of kind of norms and
0:11:18.160,0:11:22.690 incentives that try to have the best
0:11:21.279,0:11:27.339 properties that we can get out of
0:11:22.690,0:11:30.010 markets but do you do so without like
0:11:27.339,0:11:32.200 basically economically breaking in the
0:11:30.010,0:11:34.839 way that we know and if existing
0:11:32.200,0:11:36.730 property right systems do once you enter
0:11:34.839,0:11:38.350 a world where none of everything that
0:11:36.730,0:11:40.839 you build just inherently affects
0:11:38.350,0:11:42.670 millions of people well this is this is
0:11:40.839,0:11:45.760 an interesting perspective you of course
0:11:42.670,0:11:48.490 are famous for implementing this
0:11:45.760,0:11:50.709 aetherium protocol but before we ever
0:11:48.490,0:11:53.829 get to computer protocols there are sort
0:11:50.709,0:11:55.450 of legal and structural protocols that
0:11:53.829,0:11:57.820 we impose upon ourselves in the form of
0:11:55.450,0:12:01.570 government and markets that are
0:11:57.820,0:12:06.089 subordinate to government and there's a
0:12:01.570,0:12:09.390 weird way in which you may start a
0:12:06.089,0:12:12.610 process by which you write down rules
0:12:09.390,0:12:15.370 for how a society should function but
0:12:12.610,0:12:17.589 once those rules are written down you
0:12:15.370,0:12:19.930 may discover all sorts of unintended
0:12:17.589,0:12:23.110 properties of that rule set and there's
0:12:19.930,0:12:26.860 a real question can we actually unhook
0:12:23.110,0:12:32.290 ourselves from the killer app that is
0:12:26.860,0:12:34.209 capitalism or American democracy and if
0:12:32.290,0:12:39.279 we start to realize that that app is
0:12:34.209,0:12:41.470 running out of control I guess in for
0:12:39.279,0:12:44.230 and of myself as a enough social
0:12:41.470,0:12:46.029 technologist and I definitely don't
0:12:44.230,0:12:48.370 think that we should be kind of
0:12:46.029,0:12:51.550 overturning entire countries with the
0:12:48.370,0:12:53.459 new mechanisms overnight I think and I
0:12:51.550,0:12:58.360 was insinuating oh definitely I think
0:12:53.459,0:13:00.490 like that's figuring out how to kind of
0:12:58.360,0:13:02.500 solve like grand problems of humanity is
0:13:00.490,0:13:04.690 a long-term goal but I mean sure term
0:13:02.500,0:13:08.320 goals are there is definitely can make
0:13:04.690,0:13:11.610 better right so I and this is actually
0:13:08.320,0:13:13.870 part of why I find a cryptocurrency and
0:13:11.610,0:13:17.140 blockchains interesting because they are
0:13:13.870,0:13:18.810 in a lot of ways this ideal ground for
0:13:17.140,0:13:22.500 economic experimentation
0:13:18.810,0:13:26.310 different types great so I to give one
0:13:22.500,0:13:28.590 concrete example and in so one of the
0:13:26.310,0:13:30.360 ideas that go on while and myself have
0:13:28.590,0:13:33.050 come up with and are pushing forward is
0:13:30.360,0:13:36.510 something called quadratic funding and
0:13:33.050,0:13:39.779 the way that quadratic funding works is
0:13:36.510,0:13:41.970 roughly this right so you have a central
0:13:39.779,0:13:43.470 kind of pool of funding and you could
0:13:41.970,0:13:44.820 imagine this coming from a government
0:13:43.470,0:13:46.620 you could imagine this coming from
0:13:44.820,0:13:50.330 wealthy donors you could imagine it just
0:13:46.620,0:13:52.740 in being put together by some like
0:13:50.330,0:13:55.860 crypto economic protocol it could come
0:13:52.740,0:13:58.770 from anywhere and then you allow people
0:13:55.860,0:14:01.410 to basically set up projects and you
0:13:58.770,0:14:03.180 what people say I have a project here is
0:14:01.410,0:14:05.700 something that I'm doing and if you like
0:14:03.180,0:14:07.980 this then you can donate to me and give
0:14:05.700,0:14:10.529 what people donate to projects and then
0:14:07.980,0:14:13.440 the core of the mechanism is basically
0:14:10.529,0:14:15.120 that if there is a projects and multiple
0:14:13.440,0:14:17.700 people donate to so there's some
0:14:15.120,0:14:20.880 projects you donate to it and someone
0:14:17.700,0:14:23.370 else donates to it as well then your
0:14:20.880,0:14:24.839 donation doesn't just benefit you it
0:14:23.370,0:14:26.339 also benefits the other person and the
0:14:24.839,0:14:28.740 other person's donation doesn't just
0:14:26.339,0:14:31.560 benefit them it also benefits you and so
0:14:28.740,0:14:33.180 to kind of counteract that kind of
0:14:31.560,0:14:35.700 market failure the mechanism basically
0:14:33.180,0:14:37.650 says well we're gonna multiply the
0:14:35.700,0:14:38.850 effect of your donation by two and
0:14:37.650,0:14:41.790 multiply the effect of the other
0:14:38.850,0:14:43.380 person's donation by two and so now both
0:14:41.790,0:14:45.510 of your incentives are kind of aligned
0:14:43.380,0:14:47.430 with the whole and you extend this
0:14:45.510,0:14:48.990 mechanism so instead of supporting two
0:14:47.430,0:14:51.150 people it supports an arbitrary number
0:14:48.990,0:14:53.430 of people and you kind of calculate
0:14:51.150,0:14:57.630 these subsidies across all possible
0:14:53.430,0:14:59.370 pairs of people and what you get is this
0:14:57.630,0:15:00.930 formula that basically says you let
0:14:59.370,0:15:02.820 people donate to different projects you
0:15:00.930,0:15:04.890 look at how many people donated and how
0:15:02.820,0:15:06.870 much money you've donated and based on
0:15:04.890,0:15:09.330 this from the central pool of funding
0:15:06.870,0:15:11.880 you give this extra subsidy and so it
0:15:09.330,0:15:16.650 basically is like a market for public
0:15:11.880,0:15:18.480 goods right and in the etherium
0:15:16.650,0:15:20.190 ecosystem there is something called that
0:15:18.480,0:15:22.440 get coin grants where we've basically
0:15:20.190,0:15:25.589 started like trying to use this
0:15:22.440,0:15:27.510 mechanism to fund public goods inside
0:15:25.589,0:15:30.209 the etherium ecosystem right so this
0:15:27.510,0:15:32.670 could be implementations of the etherium
0:15:30.209,0:15:34.320 protocol it could be scaling solutions
0:15:32.670,0:15:37.530 could be wallets it could be educational
0:15:34.320,0:15:39.830 resources and we've had a and of tests
0:15:37.530,0:15:42.120 around recently with about and if
0:15:39.830,0:15:44.340 $200,000 in this central matching pool
0:15:42.120,0:15:47.010 and it recently finished and you can go
0:15:44.340,0:15:49.410 to a get coin dot Co slash grants to see
0:15:47.010,0:15:51.210 the results and we got contributions
0:15:49.410,0:15:52.890 from hundreds of people and the results
0:15:51.210,0:15:56.750 a gave were actually pretty reasonable
0:15:52.890,0:16:00.240 so in tests yeah and and so I I think
0:15:56.750,0:16:03.360 cerium could have a lot of value is and
0:16:00.240,0:16:05.150 just being a test net in bed for and
0:16:03.360,0:16:07.980 decentralized governance and
0:16:05.150,0:16:10.200 decentralized public good funding
0:16:07.980,0:16:12.360 infrastructure of this kind well I think
0:16:10.200,0:16:13.860 that that's fascinating I guess one of
0:16:12.360,0:16:16.620 the ways in which I would understand
0:16:13.860,0:16:18.570 that is you know when my wife who's an
0:16:16.620,0:16:21.150 economist and I talk about this stuff we
0:16:18.570,0:16:23.250 often talk about a market democracy has
0:16:21.150,0:16:25.230 these two voting systems one is one
0:16:23.250,0:16:25.980 dollar one vote and the other is one
0:16:25.230,0:16:27.480 person one vote
0:16:25.980,0:16:30.530 theoretically anyway even if that's
0:16:27.480,0:16:33.030 honor only in the debris I and like
0:16:30.530,0:16:35.040 liberal democracy does this horrible
0:16:33.030,0:16:36.570 thing of like treating these s opposite
0:16:35.040,0:16:37.920 poles where something is either one or
0:16:36.570,0:16:39.270 the other and they're and they're often
0:16:37.920,0:16:41.370 fighting each other one really
0:16:39.270,0:16:41.700 everything's a spectrum and I like that
0:16:41.370,0:16:43.470 a lot
0:16:41.700,0:16:45.870 I mean an another thing that we've been
0:16:43.470,0:16:48.410 discussing recently and this again is
0:16:45.870,0:16:51.510 sort of drink with with Pia Milani is
0:16:48.410,0:16:54.060 thinking about the Chicago approximation
0:16:51.510,0:16:56.430 you've got some reality that's
0:16:54.060,0:16:59.220 incredibly nonlinear and complicated and
0:16:56.430,0:17:01.110 then weirdly yeah in a one of these
0:16:59.220,0:17:03.990 famous instances where the map is not
0:17:01.110,0:17:07.310 the territory you take this incredibly
0:17:03.990,0:17:09.210 simplified world where agents have this
0:17:07.310,0:17:10.830 properties you can't even believe you
0:17:09.210,0:17:12.990 would ascribe to a human being where you
0:17:10.830,0:17:16.080 thought Homo economicus and you it's
0:17:12.990,0:17:18.270 perfectly rational and it it has all of
0:17:16.080,0:17:20.610 these characteristics like an automaton
0:17:18.270,0:17:24.060 that only makes rational decisions and
0:17:20.610,0:17:26.280 then you impose that like through law
0:17:24.060,0:17:29.550 and economics programs and suddenly
0:17:26.280,0:17:32.280 you've distorted your society by taking
0:17:29.550,0:17:34.530 the map as the territory so seriously
0:17:32.280,0:17:38.720 that you don't realize that you're
0:17:34.530,0:17:44.040 destroying something and distorting yeah
0:17:38.720,0:17:46.500 no that's definitely and I think it's a
0:17:44.040,0:17:49.140 social it's one approximation
0:17:46.500,0:17:50.820 and you mean we're never going to have
0:17:49.140,0:17:52.860 approximations that are perfect because
0:17:50.820,0:17:54.210 the world is just so we're glad to hear
0:17:52.860,0:17:58.169 that yeah and the world is just so
0:17:54.210,0:18:01.140 complicated and so even rapidly changing
0:17:58.169,0:18:03.419 in a 21st century like aprox in all
0:18:01.140,0:18:05.070 approximations are bullshit but like you
0:18:03.419,0:18:06.480 have to find a couple of good ones that
0:18:05.070,0:18:07.980 work reasonably well and make progress
0:18:06.480,0:18:09.419 for us and I think that one of the
0:18:07.980,0:18:11.760 things that's unfairly done to
0:18:09.419,0:18:13.830 cryptocurrencies is that we expect them
0:18:11.760,0:18:16.919 to solve all of the problems that
0:18:13.830,0:18:19.110 already cropped up yes in our forms of
0:18:16.919,0:18:21.870 governance and our forms of currency in
0:18:19.110,0:18:24.559 exchange in court systems and that what
0:18:21.870,0:18:27.090 we should be asking of them is to be
0:18:24.559,0:18:30.570 improvements or to augment mm-hmm
0:18:27.090,0:18:34.470 already existing systems now one of the
0:18:30.570,0:18:37.380 odd things about governance is we could
0:18:34.470,0:18:41.400 view you as in some sense starting a
0:18:37.380,0:18:44.940 rival virtual country that has a legal
0:18:41.400,0:18:46.919 system because the etherium I don't know
0:18:44.940,0:18:48.390 what to call it Network platform
0:18:46.919,0:18:50.610 protocol
0:18:48.390,0:18:52.710 yeah rules coins and it has the right to
0:18:50.610,0:18:55.409 reassign those coins and not only that
0:18:52.710,0:18:56.580 but it has a stand-in for the legal
0:18:55.409,0:19:03.059 system in the form of what are called
0:18:56.580,0:19:06.090 smart contracts mmm-hmm normally a we
0:19:03.059,0:19:08.400 have this concept in governance I guess
0:19:06.090,0:19:10.559 it goes back to Weber that a government
0:19:08.400,0:19:12.960 is supposed to be a monopoly on violence
0:19:10.559,0:19:15.570 which is an odd definition that you
0:19:12.960,0:19:18.330 recover the concept of government from
0:19:15.570,0:19:21.059 monopolizing violence and then you you
0:19:18.330,0:19:23.240 sort of unearth and and unpack all of
0:19:21.059,0:19:25.980 the features of government from that one
0:19:23.240,0:19:28.890 generating function in some sense a
0:19:25.980,0:19:31.890 cryptocurrency and smart contracts
0:19:28.890,0:19:35.220 derive from math rather than violence
0:19:31.890,0:19:37.799 they derive from math and social
0:19:35.220,0:19:39.630 consensus right I love the fact that I
0:19:37.799,0:19:41.549 was gonna get to that but I know I guess
0:19:39.630,0:19:43.440 this is important right because like for
0:19:41.549,0:19:45.299 example you know you have the Bitcoin
0:19:43.440,0:19:47.130 blockchain and then you have the
0:19:45.299,0:19:49.500 litecoin blockchain which operates under
0:19:47.130,0:19:51.090 ik almost exactly the set at the same
0:19:49.500,0:19:53.730 set of rules as the Bitcoin blockchain
0:19:51.090,0:19:55.500 and yet the Bitcoin blockchain has a
0:19:53.730,0:19:56.760 hundred million dollar market cap and
0:19:55.500,0:19:58.289 the white coin blockchain has a three
0:19:56.760,0:20:00.510 billion dollar market cap or something
0:19:58.289,0:20:04.110 like that and much less usage so
0:20:00.510,0:20:06.750 like blog Chin's are definitely not just
0:20:04.110,0:20:08.730 math and technology math and technology
0:20:06.750,0:20:10.560 are the substrate and maybe in the same
0:20:08.730,0:20:12.090 way that the military is like the
0:20:10.560,0:20:15.600 substrate of keeping a country together
0:20:12.090,0:20:18.600 but they're including police force yeah
0:20:15.600,0:20:19.740 exactly but like they're the substrate
0:20:18.600,0:20:22.230 but they're not the country right the
0:20:19.740,0:20:25.020 country is the community well and this
0:20:22.230,0:20:28.620 goes to what I would love to get into
0:20:25.020,0:20:31.230 you with love to get into with you which
0:20:28.620,0:20:34.260 is the way in which different utopian
0:20:31.230,0:20:37.230 dreams collide in the space of
0:20:34.260,0:20:40.110 cryptocurrencies so for example there
0:20:37.230,0:20:42.810 are some dreams that may sound more like
0:20:40.110,0:20:44.880 what I assume you may be active in the
0:20:42.810,0:20:46.710 effective altruism community is that a
0:20:44.880,0:20:48.300 possibility yeah
0:20:46.710,0:20:51.720 which tries to figure how to do the most
0:20:48.300,0:20:55.110 good to do good efficiently rather than
0:20:51.720,0:20:57.750 sanctimoniously there are other people
0:20:55.110,0:21:00.420 who have this idea of I just want to
0:20:57.750,0:21:01.950 retreat from other human beings and I
0:21:00.420,0:21:04.080 want to be left alone it want to be
0:21:01.950,0:21:06.900 taxed I don't to be told what to do very
0:21:04.080,0:21:08.550 strong libertarian perspective sometimes
0:21:06.900,0:21:10.440 those people are the same people there's
0:21:08.550,0:21:12.000 two kinds of libertarians there's well
0:21:10.440,0:21:14.100 there's many ways that's what Albertans
0:21:12.000,0:21:15.750 is the two kinds but like there's the
0:21:14.100,0:21:17.640 leave me alone type and then there's the
0:21:15.750,0:21:21.720 kind of conquer the world type right the
0:21:17.640,0:21:24.330 kind that kind of relishes seeing fiat
0:21:21.720,0:21:28.620 currencies be destroyed and replaced by
0:21:24.330,0:21:32.070 Bitcoin and it's kind of you know
0:21:28.620,0:21:35.790 creating a thousand a year kind of reign
0:21:32.070,0:21:40.020 of sound money that in I mean I
0:21:35.790,0:21:42.000 generally have this kind of instincts
0:21:40.020,0:21:43.890 that like when someone says that like we
0:21:42.000,0:21:45.630 should impose a lot of short-term
0:21:43.890,0:21:47.160 disruption and harm on the entire world
0:21:45.630,0:21:48.240 for the sake of some nebulous a long
0:21:47.160,0:21:51.000 term gain that's something to be
0:21:48.240,0:21:53.400 skeptical of but so I'm not gonna rely
0:21:51.000,0:21:55.530 on the word skeptical mmm-hmm you're
0:21:53.400,0:21:59.010 using an extreme form of understatement
0:21:55.530,0:22:02.730 yeah yeah and so I mean I'm definitely
0:21:59.010,0:22:04.910 not in in the camp that had of actively
0:22:02.730,0:22:09.060 relishes like fiat currency is being
0:22:04.910,0:22:11.250 destroyed but meanders and I definitely
0:22:09.060,0:22:13.530 don't think that all bitcoiners do it
0:22:11.250,0:22:17.010 like there is some that do see it as
0:22:13.530,0:22:18.840 and of a something that's supposed to
0:22:17.010,0:22:21.180 coexist and something that's supposed to
0:22:18.840,0:22:22.680 provide a check and balance against the
0:22:21.180,0:22:25.770 government's monopoly on issuing money
0:22:22.680,0:22:27.240 without replacing it entirely so you
0:22:25.770,0:22:28.680 know there are there's definitely enough
0:22:27.240,0:22:31.200 different visions within individual
0:22:28.680,0:22:34.230 communities there's different visions
0:22:31.200,0:22:36.570 between different communities you know
0:22:34.230,0:22:38.610 in it there's it's not just visions
0:22:36.570,0:22:40.080 about what cryptocurrencies should do to
0:22:38.610,0:22:42.600 the world it's also in your visions
0:22:40.080,0:22:44.220 about like what how cryptocurrencies
0:22:42.600,0:22:47.370 should work internally and what they
0:22:44.220,0:22:50.060 should do to each other so like that in
0:22:47.370,0:22:52.830 that sense I guess like a
0:22:50.060,0:22:54.780 cryptocurrencies are interesting in in
0:22:52.830,0:22:56.250 ball chains not just because of like
0:22:54.780,0:22:58.830 what they can do in the world but also
0:22:56.250,0:23:01.470 just as this and if microcosm of the
0:22:58.830,0:23:03.630 world all into themselves I mean like we
0:23:01.470,0:23:06.060 talked about country virtual countries
0:23:03.630,0:23:07.440 but you know there there's many virtual
0:23:06.060,0:23:09.240 countries now there's over fourteen
0:23:07.440,0:23:12.930 hundred on coin market cap and they have
0:23:09.240,0:23:16.050 some analog of you do think of them as
0:23:12.930,0:23:18.950 virtual countries it's singing all
0:23:16.050,0:23:21.210 models are bullshit but some are useful
0:23:18.950,0:23:28.110 but to the extent of the country is a
0:23:21.210,0:23:32.240 sensible thing to yes yeah yeah yeah so
0:23:28.110,0:23:38.700 in that world where we're dealing with
0:23:32.240,0:23:41.490 often very radical individualism and a
0:23:38.700,0:23:44.880 very strong sense that there is
0:23:41.490,0:23:48.060 something wrong with the coercive aspect
0:23:44.880,0:23:51.350 of a government do you worry that
0:23:48.060,0:23:57.290 something that you have given birth to
0:23:51.350,0:24:02.240 may start to behave in very different
0:23:57.290,0:24:06.270 ways than you would ever want definitely
0:24:02.240,0:24:07.860 probably the closest that we've seen to
0:24:06.270,0:24:10.410 things like this happening already would
0:24:07.860,0:24:14.460 be the the initial coin offering a boom
0:24:10.410,0:24:16.950 in the 2017 and 2018 and like basically
0:24:14.460,0:24:19.020 if what happens and there was that
0:24:16.950,0:24:21.870 people saw that cryptocurrencies are
0:24:19.020,0:24:23.580 something that could potentially had a
0:24:21.870,0:24:27.450 very high value and so people started
0:24:23.580,0:24:29.460 saying oh like I'm raising money
0:24:27.450,0:24:31.200 anyone come and give me fifty million
0:24:29.460,0:24:32.669 dollars and I'm gonna build a
0:24:31.200,0:24:34.200 cryptocurrency and I'm gonna make it
0:24:32.669,0:24:36.600 great and I'll turn your 50 million
0:24:34.200,0:24:43.440 dollars into 50 billion going guaranteed
0:24:36.600,0:24:45.149 and this like and like it's complicated
0:24:43.440,0:24:47.370 right because I mean on the one hand
0:24:45.149,0:24:48.929 like the possibility of a kind of
0:24:47.370,0:24:52.679 raising money and using it to fund
0:24:48.929,0:24:54.899 cryptocurrency development like it's it
0:24:52.679,0:24:56.610 did a lot of good right began like in
0:24:54.899,0:24:59.760 general like the open source community
0:24:56.610,0:25:01.889 it's and it kind of acutely suffers from
0:24:59.760,0:25:03.659 this have public goods challenge that we
0:25:01.889,0:25:06.600 talked about because an open source
0:25:03.659,0:25:09.299 software is a very public good and like
0:25:06.600,0:25:10.860 we saw some very public and if splats
0:25:09.299,0:25:13.529 involving open source software being
0:25:10.860,0:25:15.029 under maintains like the CloudFlare and
0:25:13.529,0:25:17.610 of issues a couple years back when it
0:25:15.029,0:25:19.320 turned out that's an open ssl library it
0:25:17.610,0:25:20.909 was like really really under maintained
0:25:19.320,0:25:23.130 despite billions of dollars of value
0:25:20.909,0:25:24.899 depending on it and with
0:25:23.130,0:25:26.100 cryptocurrencies suddenly you could make
0:25:24.899,0:25:28.799 things that are completely open-source
0:25:26.100,0:25:31.970 that through coins do have a funding
0:25:28.799,0:25:34.919 mechanism and like you know this has
0:25:31.970,0:25:36.179 massive massively accelerated the
0:25:34.919,0:25:38.250 development of many kinds of
0:25:36.179,0:25:40.740 cryptography zero-knowledge proofs and
0:25:38.250,0:25:42.750 peer-to-peer networking a lot of other
0:25:40.740,0:25:45.539 things but at this on the other hand
0:25:42.750,0:25:49.200 like it's also given rise to this kind
0:25:45.539,0:25:50.340 of speculation and in many cases the
0:25:49.200,0:25:53.490 projects turned out to be outright
0:25:50.340,0:25:55.470 fraudulent right but it's a really
0:25:53.490,0:25:57.419 delicious and weird situation I haven't
0:25:55.470,0:26:00.779 asked you about it yet but you're I
0:25:57.419,0:26:03.590 presume that your net worth crashed a
0:26:00.779,0:26:05.820 great deal we got run up and then came
0:26:03.590,0:26:10.039 came back yeah
0:26:05.820,0:26:17.429 and were you happy in any way about that
0:26:10.039,0:26:19.289 relieved relieved yeah so when the right
0:26:17.429,0:26:24.299 at the top of the big bubble like in
0:26:19.289,0:26:27.539 December 2017 when yeah good coin was
0:26:24.299,0:26:30.299 hitting 20,000 eath was hitting 1,400 I
0:26:27.539,0:26:32.880 mean I made this tweet and a series of
0:26:30.299,0:26:34.080 tweets and that and it became somewhat
0:26:32.880,0:26:36.419 famous one in the space where I
0:26:34.080,0:26:38.309 basically said the cryptocurrency space
0:26:36.419,0:26:41.040 has reached half a trillion dollars does
0:26:38.309,0:26:43.200 does it deserve it like do the thing
0:26:41.040,0:26:46.080 that it's actually accomplished like
0:26:43.200,0:26:49.020 hold a candle to the promises that my
0:26:46.080,0:26:51.450 market is ascribing to it and I mean the
0:26:49.020,0:26:54.630 subtext of my answer is not yet and that
0:26:51.450,0:26:58.620 was proven very right yeah I fairly
0:26:54.630,0:27:04.640 quickly and but you didn't short it did
0:26:58.620,0:27:07.410 you so the iana I did can you get and
0:27:04.640,0:27:09.780 get the etherium foundation to sell
0:27:07.410,0:27:11.520 about seventy thousand eath like
0:27:09.780,0:27:14.400 basically at the top and that's doubled
0:27:11.520,0:27:16.860 our runway now so there was one good
0:27:14.400,0:27:19.380 decision that had a land that had a lot
0:27:16.860,0:27:25.200 of impact but it did not short I should
0:27:19.380,0:27:29.540 say that I was weirdly somewhat relieved
0:27:25.200,0:27:34.260 as well I view that the innovation of
0:27:29.540,0:27:37.290 decentralized transactions and the bid
0:27:34.260,0:27:39.570 and you know it's hard for me to say
0:27:37.290,0:27:41.490 because I actually I'm convinced that
0:27:39.570,0:27:43.230 the blockchain should be an intermediate
0:27:41.490,0:27:46.500 state and should not be the permanent
0:27:43.230,0:27:50.190 version of decentralized computing angry
0:27:46.500,0:27:52.760 okay but I thought that that was such an
0:27:50.190,0:27:57.900 amazing innovation that you could have a
0:27:52.760,0:28:00.390 locally enforced mechanism without a
0:27:57.900,0:28:03.060 centralized Authority but with a global
0:28:00.390,0:28:08.610 ledger unfair which which I see if it is
0:28:03.060,0:28:10.710 a point of intellectual failure that in
0:28:08.610,0:28:12.990 some sense you're mirroring the
0:28:10.710,0:28:17.370 transactions of the physical world so
0:28:12.990,0:28:20.880 for example for those listening at home
0:28:17.370,0:28:23.430 who don't have a visual here Vitalik has
0:28:20.880,0:28:25.650 several glass bottles next to him were
0:28:23.430,0:28:29.760 he to give one to me which he shouldn't
0:28:25.650,0:28:31.980 do right now but the idea would be that
0:28:29.760,0:28:35.220 it would no longer be in his space and
0:28:31.980,0:28:40.640 it would be in mine and that property of
0:28:35.220,0:28:43.410 Adams has been somewhat mirrored in
0:28:40.640,0:28:46.770 Bitcoin and blockchain and aetherium
0:28:43.410,0:28:49.200 transactions I mean this is like the
0:28:46.770,0:28:51.600 concept of like money as a thing right
0:28:49.200,0:28:53.910 the and if the scarcity of the 21
0:28:51.600,0:28:54.870 million limit if I give you five coins I
0:28:53.910,0:28:57.240 have five of us and you
0:28:54.870,0:28:58.710 five more right and so the idea is that
0:28:57.240,0:29:02.370 it's a what you're doing is you're
0:28:58.710,0:29:04.680 porting conservation laws into from the
0:29:02.370,0:29:09.450 physical layer into the logical layer
0:29:04.680,0:29:11.790 right and yeah and I guess and if to
0:29:09.450,0:29:13.710 some extent kind of reflects the kind of
0:29:11.790,0:29:16.920 very deeply enough Austrian economic
0:29:13.710,0:29:19.700 libertarian and origins of the the space
0:29:16.920,0:29:24.510 way better back in the end of 2009 to
0:29:19.700,0:29:27.690 2013 days I mean creating like digital
0:29:24.510,0:29:29.250 gold was pretty much the Fukien Digital
0:29:27.690,0:29:32.580 payment system was the first use case
0:29:29.250,0:29:34.559 but and I definitely think that like we
0:29:32.580,0:29:36.120 can and should be thinking about point
0:29:34.559,0:29:38.460 systems that work in ways other than
0:29:36.120,0:29:41.030 money well I agree with that and I also
0:29:38.460,0:29:44.040 think that it isn't digital gold because
0:29:41.030,0:29:46.620 as the saying goes you know gold or
0:29:44.040,0:29:49.260 money has no stench and that the
0:29:46.620,0:29:51.480 blockchain is this bizarre difference
0:29:49.260,0:29:55.230 with the physical world and that it is a
0:29:51.480,0:29:58.320 distributed ledger that may be somewhat
0:29:55.230,0:30:01.260 anonymous but it still gives the history
0:29:58.320,0:30:05.750 like if I hand you a dollar and and you
0:30:01.260,0:30:09.090 don't have access to any particular
0:30:05.750,0:30:11.160 means of analyzing whose DNA is on that
0:30:09.090,0:30:14.790 dollar you have no idea where it's been
0:30:11.160,0:30:17.040 and these that is not that is violated
0:30:14.790,0:30:20.070 by the current block chain type
0:30:17.040,0:30:22.350 implementations yes so it isn't a
0:30:20.070,0:30:25.770 complete port of the physical world into
0:30:22.350,0:30:27.690 a digital but it is a an astounding one
0:30:25.770,0:30:30.240 and I guess I get very frustrated with
0:30:27.690,0:30:32.220 the economics questions like well what's
0:30:30.240,0:30:34.340 good what's it good for where's the
0:30:32.220,0:30:37.350 killer app I mean we have all of
0:30:34.340,0:30:40.740 whatever's left of human civilization to
0:30:37.350,0:30:42.929 figure out what this thing is meant to
0:30:40.740,0:30:44.490 do you know and I'm not very worried
0:30:42.929,0:30:46.530 that we were not going to figure it out
0:30:44.490,0:30:48.360 I mean we're going to figure it out
0:30:46.530,0:30:49.860 sooner or later because a conservation
0:30:48.360,0:30:53.429 law and digital space is just too
0:30:49.860,0:30:56.100 valuable is that wrong are you worried
0:30:53.429,0:30:58.170 at all about the search for like I I
0:30:56.100,0:30:59.640 just hate this question you know where's
0:30:58.170,0:31:02.760 that where's the killer app and I'm
0:30:59.640,0:31:05.400 thinking chill out man this is an
0:31:02.760,0:31:08.130 astounding intellectual achievement what
0:31:05.400,0:31:11.700 is that wrong yeah and I say
0:31:08.130,0:31:14.669 there's definitely a and a long time to
0:31:11.700,0:31:16.530 go and they think you know the apps will
0:31:14.669,0:31:18.500 come you know there's the ones that are
0:31:16.530,0:31:21.630 coming right now are basically a kind of
0:31:18.500,0:31:24.900 financial but I think I mean that's kind
0:31:21.630,0:31:26.760 of true just in part because the finance
0:31:24.900,0:31:28.950 the existing financial system is just
0:31:26.760,0:31:31.830 like so ready and waiting there to be
0:31:28.950,0:31:34.860 disrupted event in like in the long term
0:31:31.830,0:31:42.030 like there's there's it's disrupted and
0:31:34.860,0:31:43.470 polite term for destroyed you choose but
0:31:42.030,0:31:46.470 I mean there's something interesting
0:31:43.470,0:31:53.210 here you're 25 years old every bit of
0:31:46.470,0:31:58.289 your adult life is post 2008 mm-hmm and
0:31:53.210,0:32:01.559 to be 25 years old and in charge of a
0:31:58.289,0:32:03.270 financial ecosystem to the extent that
0:32:01.559,0:32:05.400 anyone is in charge of etherium and I
0:32:03.270,0:32:07.350 don't want to claim that you are sitting
0:32:05.400,0:32:11.820 there running and making all these
0:32:07.350,0:32:14.850 decisions that's an astounding thing
0:32:11.820,0:32:19.429 that that this has fallen to somebody
0:32:14.850,0:32:23.250 who whose adult life has post the crash
0:32:19.429,0:32:25.230 hmm do you think about that at all that
0:32:23.250,0:32:28.020 you don't have the same associations the
0:32:25.230,0:32:30.690 rest of us do with markets when they
0:32:28.020,0:32:32.340 were claimed to be working well like
0:32:30.690,0:32:34.380 during the during the era of the Great
0:32:32.340,0:32:39.840 Moderation supposedly when volatility
0:32:34.380,0:32:42.210 was banished yeah 17:12 right so one
0:32:39.840,0:32:44.010 thing that I kind of when we realized
0:32:42.210,0:32:46.289 the recently that I found interesting is
0:32:44.010,0:32:48.030 that there like there aren't kind of two
0:32:46.289,0:32:51.470 tribes here there's to be tribes right
0:32:48.030,0:32:56.340 and what I mean by this is that there's
0:32:51.470,0:32:59.039 the tribe that says markets are great
0:32:56.340,0:33:01.169 and there's the tribe that says markets
0:32:59.039,0:33:02.280 are bad and like we should move to more
0:33:01.169,0:33:05.429 things don't look like political
0:33:02.280,0:33:08.100 mechanisms but then if you look at kind
0:33:05.429,0:33:10.190 of the zeitgeist that's kind of fairly
0:33:08.100,0:33:12.210 popular in the cryptocurrencies space
0:33:10.190,0:33:16.070 definitely even still now to a big
0:33:12.210,0:33:19.559 extent it's that markets are great but
0:33:16.070,0:33:22.020 the thing that existed and exists like
0:33:19.559,0:33:26.010 isn't markets and
0:33:22.020,0:33:28.260 so yes like there's people who are pro
0:33:26.010,0:33:29.910 market and who see ahead of the existing
0:33:28.260,0:33:31.560 financial system as being that and
0:33:29.910,0:33:33.420 there's people who are pro market at
0:33:31.560,0:33:35.640 receive the existing financial system as
0:33:33.420,0:33:36.930 being like yet another one of the
0:33:35.640,0:33:39.660 perversions of that that needs to be
0:33:36.930,0:33:43.260 overcome well it's odd because I would
0:33:39.660,0:33:47.010 love to fix our democracy I'd love to
0:33:43.260,0:33:49.410 fix our markets but I am I have to say I
0:33:47.010,0:33:54.150 believe that I have grown up in a an
0:33:49.410,0:33:56.100 approximately 50 year bubble which the
0:33:54.150,0:34:00.770 Silent Generation and then the boomers
0:33:56.100,0:34:03.900 presided over and my own read is that
0:34:00.770,0:34:06.780 because of their inability to figure out
0:34:03.900,0:34:09.300 sufficient innovation to take over from
0:34:06.780,0:34:12.840 the previously innovative system that
0:34:09.300,0:34:15.360 the world of human expertise has been
0:34:12.840,0:34:17.790 almost completely contaminated by
0:34:15.360,0:34:21.270 special pleading and political economy
0:34:17.790,0:34:23.780 so that many of us who don't have a
0:34:21.270,0:34:28.620 particularly Austrian or libertarian
0:34:23.780,0:34:32.159 bent are just sick to death of being
0:34:28.620,0:34:34.010 lied to by people claim to be Nobel
0:34:32.159,0:34:37.679 laureates in economics yep
0:34:34.010,0:34:39.840 do you have any emotional connection to
0:34:37.679,0:34:42.860 you hmm
0:34:39.840,0:34:45.960 like I feel like I'm lied to about
0:34:42.860,0:34:47.370 almost almost you know the doctors are
0:34:45.960,0:34:48.390 lying the lawyers are lying the
0:34:47.370,0:34:52.010 accountants are lying
0:34:48.390,0:34:55.230 the extraction companies are lying and
0:34:52.010,0:34:57.510 it's not because of a million different
0:34:55.230,0:34:59.700 reasons it's because growth ran out and
0:34:57.510,0:35:03.000 our whole society is predicated on a
0:34:59.700,0:35:06.030 need for economic growth yeah no there's
0:35:03.000,0:35:07.710 definitely and of things that are that
0:35:06.030,0:35:10.320 have changed in us and assess them
0:35:07.710,0:35:11.490 that's just not keeping up and doesn't
0:35:10.320,0:35:16.130 and doesn't understand that there is
0:35:11.490,0:35:17.700 such a thing as keeping up and it's like
0:35:16.130,0:35:22.740 hmm
0:35:17.700,0:35:24.240 so like one thing that even Gwen talks
0:35:22.740,0:35:27.630 about this right what he talks about
0:35:24.240,0:35:31.400 kind of the mortgage markets has social
0:35:27.630,0:35:35.230 technology mentality versus the like
0:35:31.400,0:35:39.550 basically end of history mentality and I
0:35:35.230,0:35:42.730 like the way that I can and I definitely
0:35:39.550,0:35:44.680 saw this kind of zeitgeist 10 years ago
0:35:42.730,0:35:46.300 that said kind of even more broadly than
0:35:44.680,0:35:49.900 like markets versus other mechanisms
0:35:46.300,0:35:51.700 that's like things are 80% efficient and
0:35:49.900,0:35:52.240 lots of work to make them 95 percent
0:35:51.700,0:35:57.190 efficient
0:35:52.240,0:35:58.869 whereas the the thing that's really
0:35:57.190,0:35:59.980 going on is that things are 3 percent
0:35:58.869,0:36:02.080 efficient and we should work hard on
0:35:59.980,0:36:05.170 making them six percent efficient like
0:36:02.080,0:36:07.720 if you kind of move away from the narrow
0:36:05.170,0:36:08.859 context of like I'm I have something to
0:36:07.720,0:36:10.540 sell when you have something to buy
0:36:08.859,0:36:14.260 which is pretty well optimized already
0:36:10.540,0:36:15.820 then there's lots of these and very big
0:36:14.260,0:36:18.970 things that are happening that have just
0:36:15.820,0:36:23.320 completely been missed and in technology
0:36:18.970,0:36:25.180 and if Network effects and all and just
0:36:23.320,0:36:26.800 generally kind of migrating from atoms
0:36:25.180,0:36:31.180 to bits are definitely all a big part of
0:36:26.800,0:36:32.830 it so let's talk about something's a
0:36:31.180,0:36:35.800 little bit funny which is if you start
0:36:32.830,0:36:37.330 to replace government as we were talking
0:36:35.800,0:36:40.119 about it and you see it as a monopoly on
0:36:37.330,0:36:43.930 violence you notice that very often
0:36:40.119,0:36:46.480 there there's a very funny role played
0:36:43.930,0:36:48.340 by organized crime of course when we
0:36:46.480,0:36:50.770 think about organized crime we tend to
0:36:48.340,0:36:52.900 get emotionally excited by it for
0:36:50.770,0:36:56.080 whatever reason we make lots of movies
0:36:52.900,0:36:58.590 about it it occupies the mind is
0:36:56.080,0:37:01.480 something terrifying and alluring and
0:36:58.590,0:37:05.800 there's sort of two weird aspects to
0:37:01.480,0:37:09.550 organized crime one of which is violence
0:37:05.800,0:37:11.950 as a contract enforcement mechanism in
0:37:09.550,0:37:14.890 other words you're you're gambling so
0:37:11.950,0:37:16.420 you don't have access to the regular
0:37:14.890,0:37:20.290 court system now you have a gambling
0:37:16.420,0:37:26.320 debt and so just the way our government
0:37:20.290,0:37:28.330 would put you in jail if you you know
0:37:26.320,0:37:30.130 started doing things you couldn't
0:37:28.330,0:37:31.570 fulfill all of your obligations and you
0:37:30.130,0:37:34.990 were doing harm to lots of people and
0:37:31.570,0:37:37.540 you couldn't be stopped organized crime
0:37:34.990,0:37:40.270 has to do somebody can't maintain jails
0:37:37.540,0:37:42.700 you know so it can put the hurt on
0:37:40.270,0:37:45.220 somebody for means of contract
0:37:42.700,0:37:46.930 enforcement so it's it's not looking to
0:37:45.220,0:37:48.260 do violent things it's looking to run
0:37:46.930,0:37:49.910 illegal businesses
0:37:48.260,0:37:52.100 for which there's demand yeah and then
0:37:49.910,0:37:53.560 it has a problem of enforcement then
0:37:52.100,0:37:57.370 there's another part of it which is
0:37:53.560,0:37:59.930 violence as the product so for example
0:37:57.370,0:38:01.850 extortion be shame if anything were to
0:37:59.930,0:38:04.820 happen to this lovely business that
0:38:01.850,0:38:06.920 you're running is a veiled threat pay us
0:38:04.820,0:38:09.980 or we're gonna do harm to your business
0:38:06.920,0:38:12.340 or you know contract killings and the
0:38:09.980,0:38:15.110 like yeah are you worried that
0:38:12.340,0:38:18.140 effectively by introducing parallel
0:38:15.110,0:38:22.010 structures both in the form of currency
0:38:18.140,0:38:24.320 and in the form of contracts smart
0:38:22.010,0:38:27.590 contracts that are the cynic wanna and I
0:38:24.320,0:38:30.590 guess of the difference between Bitcoin
0:38:27.590,0:38:33.410 and aetherium right that the killer app
0:38:30.590,0:38:35.090 that is most likely to happen while the
0:38:33.410,0:38:37.880 technology is still clunky and
0:38:35.090,0:38:42.920 cumbersome and difficult is in the
0:38:37.880,0:38:46.340 parallel space that either you are going
0:38:42.920,0:38:49.430 to replace organized crime as a place to
0:38:46.340,0:38:52.130 do contractual business outside of the
0:38:49.430,0:38:54.890 normal scope which could be a benefit
0:38:52.130,0:38:56.870 because organized crime still exists and
0:38:54.890,0:38:58.880 is a bad thing because it uses violence
0:38:56.870,0:39:01.850 and you would use math and in place of
0:38:58.880,0:39:07.360 it or that it could actually be used to
0:39:01.850,0:39:09.530 facilitate violence by you know using
0:39:07.360,0:39:12.290 let's say prediction markets or
0:39:09.530,0:39:16.970 something else to induce people to
0:39:12.290,0:39:20.120 commit crimes where the committer the
0:39:16.970,0:39:21.800 committer of violence has unusual
0:39:20.120,0:39:23.120 information about where the violence
0:39:21.800,0:39:27.830 will be committed and therefore can
0:39:23.120,0:39:30.290 profit from it it's definitely a worry
0:39:27.830,0:39:31.670 that have I in make lots of people in
0:39:30.290,0:39:33.920 the crypt of space have had since the
0:39:31.670,0:39:36.530 beginning though I do feel like at least
0:39:33.920,0:39:38.090 so far I've been surprised like it feels
0:39:36.530,0:39:41.960 like a less avetis happens than we had
0:39:38.090,0:39:44.330 expected the thing now what do you what
0:39:41.960,0:39:47.750 accounts for the idea that something
0:39:44.330,0:39:51.250 that can be dreamt has mostly not
0:39:47.750,0:39:53.810 occurred yes I definitely have yeah
0:39:51.250,0:39:54.860 maybe it's a great thing about humans
0:39:53.810,0:39:56.330 that we didn't realize that we're not
0:39:54.860,0:39:57.800 nearly the horrible people we thought
0:39:56.330,0:39:59.750 and I definitely have a couple of
0:39:57.800,0:40:01.640 theories about this so one of those
0:39:59.750,0:40:07.519 theories is
0:40:01.640,0:40:10.849 like basically a lot of things that
0:40:07.519,0:40:12.769 people do and especially a lot of things
0:40:10.849,0:40:14.390 that people do in the InfoSphere because
0:40:12.769,0:40:15.710 like public goods are gonna have
0:40:14.390,0:40:18.730 chronically underfunded and all that
0:40:15.710,0:40:22.180 rely really heavily on goodwill and so
0:40:18.730,0:40:25.160 you know you have goodwill that if
0:40:22.180,0:40:27.289 someone if you pay someone to write some
0:40:25.160,0:40:29.809 piece piece of software for your website
0:40:27.289,0:40:31.880 it's not gonna include some bloggers go
0:40:29.809,0:40:33.829 yeah some bug that'll steal people's
0:40:31.880,0:40:37.730 money or tell the FBI where you are that
0:40:33.829,0:40:39.079 you if you create a system for the
0:40:37.730,0:40:42.470 enforcing agreements that they'll
0:40:39.079,0:40:45.710 actually get enforced then even like on
0:40:42.470,0:40:47.989 internet forums they depend on kind of a
0:40:45.710,0:40:51.259 lot of volunteer labor for just things
0:40:47.989,0:40:54.980 like moderation and if you create a
0:40:51.259,0:40:56.809 group that just goes like fundamentally
0:40:54.980,0:40:58.460 against like the vast majority of
0:40:56.809,0:41:00.440 people's values then it's just gonna be
0:40:58.460,0:41:06.680 hard to find volunteer effort for that
0:41:00.440,0:41:08.539 sort of thing and like this so that's
0:41:06.680,0:41:11.180 probably the big in the big reason I
0:41:08.539,0:41:13.700 think why ik so far we don't really see
0:41:11.180,0:41:16.309 a kind of you know complicated like
0:41:13.700,0:41:20.059 decentralized structure is being created
0:41:16.309,0:41:21.650 to facilitate like black black markets
0:41:20.059,0:41:22.819 for killing people and so forth because
0:41:21.650,0:41:26.029 let's start off with something more
0:41:22.819,0:41:28.130 mundane like a numbers racket right so a
0:41:26.029,0:41:31.099 numbers racket would probably be a much
0:41:28.130,0:41:32.960 simpler application so what do you mean
0:41:31.099,0:41:34.400 by numbers racket here well it's
0:41:32.960,0:41:36.650 something that takes the place of a
0:41:34.400,0:41:39.619 lottery where some let's say some
0:41:36.650,0:41:41.749 naturally occurring number that would be
0:41:39.619,0:41:44.329 printed in a newspaper and presumably
0:41:41.749,0:41:47.089 nobody has the influence over what
0:41:44.329,0:41:49.670 number gets printed right constitutes
0:41:47.089,0:41:51.920 the lotto draw lotteries have existed on
0:41:49.670,0:41:55.400 watching since the beginning yeah okay
0:41:51.920,0:41:57.319 even there's definitely been this kind
0:41:55.400,0:41:59.569 of sub community of people that created
0:41:57.319,0:42:01.099 these kind of provably faire Ponzi
0:41:59.569,0:42:03.019 contracts where and we have a smart
0:42:01.099,0:42:05.180 contracts and you can throw money in and
0:42:03.019,0:42:07.339 as soon as if you're the nth person to
0:42:05.180,0:42:10.069 throw money n su as soon as two n people
0:42:07.339,0:42:11.779 throw money and you get like 1.92 back
0:42:10.069,0:42:15.739 or something like that and like this was
0:42:11.779,0:42:18.200 just a fun game that people have made
0:42:15.739,0:42:19.910 and like participated in even fully
0:42:18.200,0:42:23.569 knowing what the economics of the thing
0:42:19.910,0:42:28.690 are so yeah in thing things like that
0:42:23.569,0:42:32.089 have definitely happened so I don't like
0:42:28.690,0:42:34.700 though in gambling is the sort of thing
0:42:32.089,0:42:36.739 that like there isn't like there isn't
0:42:34.700,0:42:38.539 this kind of nine ninety nine percent
0:42:36.739,0:42:41.150 plus consensus that it's really horrible
0:42:38.539,0:42:42.589 and evil right because like on the one
0:42:41.150,0:42:44.059 hand like lots of people want to be on
0:42:42.589,0:42:49.089 it but on the other hand people do it
0:42:44.059,0:42:51.829 and it's something that I think people
0:42:49.089,0:42:53.660 see negative consequences of but at the
0:42:51.829,0:42:55.249 same time it's something it is something
0:42:53.660,0:42:59.299 that people participate in and enjoy
0:42:55.249,0:43:01.549 whereas the I mean if extremely bad
0:42:59.299,0:43:04.160 stuff like that's there's definitely
0:43:01.549,0:43:06.559 this kind of this kind of barrier
0:43:04.160,0:43:08.239 between kind of things that are edgy
0:43:06.559,0:43:11.359 versus things that are just so far over
0:43:08.239,0:43:15.799 the edge and for things that are and if
0:43:11.359,0:43:17.869 so so far over the edge like it is yeah
0:43:15.799,0:43:19.220 even with smart contracts and even with
0:43:17.869,0:43:21.410 all of those things it's still hard to
0:43:19.220,0:43:25.160 coordinate those structures and I think
0:43:21.410,0:43:28.430 like the blockchain like the blockchains
0:43:25.160,0:43:30.109 inability to directly read facts about
0:43:28.430,0:43:33.710 the real world could even be a saving
0:43:30.109,0:43:36.410 grace here because like because a
0:43:33.710,0:43:38.029 blockchain can't directly read like
0:43:36.410,0:43:39.710 whether or not something in the real
0:43:38.029,0:43:41.239 world happens it basically me and said
0:43:39.710,0:43:42.739 if you want to have some application
0:43:41.239,0:43:45.140 whether a prediction market or something
0:43:42.739,0:43:46.489 else that does okay so can we say a
0:43:45.140,0:43:48.259 little bit more about the probably
0:43:46.489,0:43:48.799 intellectual problem that you're you're
0:43:48.259,0:43:50.690 in touching
0:43:48.799,0:43:52.999 so the idea is that there may be
0:43:50.690,0:43:58.130 something that's very perceptible to us
0:43:52.999,0:44:00.019 hmm about the real world but we might
0:43:58.130,0:44:01.869 naively think well the computer should
0:44:00.019,0:44:04.400 be able to tell whether that happened
0:44:01.869,0:44:07.460 right or it didn't happen and that
0:44:04.400,0:44:11.630 that's a surprisingly difficult thing to
0:44:07.460,0:44:15.230 code up reliably so that the interface
0:44:11.630,0:44:19.420 between the world of bits and bytes in
0:44:15.230,0:44:22.279 the world of otherwise physical reality
0:44:19.420,0:44:26.150 which often we don't realize we're
0:44:22.279,0:44:27.250 thinking about subjectively hmm that
0:44:26.150,0:44:30.430 it's hard to
0:44:27.250,0:44:32.530 maintain that interface so that the way
0:44:30.430,0:44:34.360 in which the things that have happened
0:44:32.530,0:44:36.550 in the real world can be definitely
0:44:34.360,0:44:38.830 agreed upon without us any kind of
0:44:36.550,0:44:40.930 adjudication inside of the digital right
0:44:38.830,0:44:43.270 yeah so I don't know how to say that
0:44:40.930,0:44:45.730 well block chains are an a fundamentally
0:44:43.270,0:44:47.890 programmatic medium all they see is data
0:44:45.730,0:44:50.650 that gets fed into them and what they
0:44:47.890,0:44:54.370 can compute as a result of that data and
0:44:50.650,0:44:56.920 so if you wants to create a smart
0:44:54.370,0:44:59.560 contract that says if someone figures
0:44:56.920,0:45:01.330 out how to what the prime factors have a
0:44:59.560,0:45:03.370 big number or pay them a reward you can
0:45:01.330,0:45:04.510 do that because prime prime factors are
0:45:03.370,0:45:07.150 something that you can multiply together
0:45:04.510,0:45:10.000 and verify but if he wants to have a
0:45:07.150,0:45:13.000 smart contract that says if there's a
0:45:10.000,0:45:14.980 hurricane and in Srilanka then pay five
0:45:13.000,0:45:17.080 hundred bucks then like you can't do
0:45:14.980,0:45:19.390 that on the watch in itself because like
0:45:17.080,0:45:20.830 computer code has no idea what
0:45:19.390,0:45:23.590 hurricanes are it has no idea what's
0:45:20.830,0:45:26.980 real like is nobody but in that case
0:45:23.590,0:45:29.710 could have a designation that you know
0:45:26.980,0:45:31.180 that the National correct you can you
0:45:29.710,0:45:32.830 can get data from third-party sources
0:45:31.180,0:45:35.410 and this is the thing that B else turns
0:45:32.830,0:45:36.910 it into data exactly this is the the
0:45:35.410,0:45:38.560 thing that a lot of applications are
0:45:36.910,0:45:41.080 doing but the thing that's important to
0:45:38.560,0:45:43.360 keep in mind is that as soon as you do
0:45:41.080,0:45:46.210 that a guru or smart contractor has no
0:45:43.360,0:45:48.070 longer fully trust us right right so
0:45:46.210,0:45:52.900 there's this concept which is like a
0:45:48.070,0:45:54.730 utopian concept of a trustless legal
0:45:52.900,0:45:57.190 system so that you don't have the
0:45:54.730,0:45:59.320 messiness of humans anywhere in the
0:45:57.190,0:46:01.810 system and you can have complete faith
0:45:59.320,0:46:03.430 and confidence in the contract that
0:46:01.810,0:46:07.060 you've struck yeah right and like
0:46:03.430,0:46:08.770 outside of prude like basically giving
0:46:07.060,0:46:10.870 bounties for solving math problems so
0:46:08.770,0:46:12.840 like it's not something that you can
0:46:10.870,0:46:17.470 100% achieve so I can't necessarily
0:46:12.840,0:46:21.190 ensure my vacation that if if I go all
0:46:17.470,0:46:24.790 the way to Argentina and the weather is
0:46:21.190,0:46:26.860 terrible it pays out because we can't
0:46:24.790,0:46:30.040 agree what terrible weather is right
0:46:26.860,0:46:32.230 like you can create structures bit made
0:46:30.040,0:46:35.890 out of individual participants they can
0:46:32.230,0:46:38.410 try to and if align incentives to get
0:46:35.890,0:46:40.690 people to kind of give to give correct
0:46:38.410,0:46:41.150 results so and you can have complicated
0:46:40.690,0:46:42.619 and if
0:46:41.150,0:46:43.970 interruptions involving people giving
0:46:42.619,0:46:46.549 different answers and policing each
0:46:43.970,0:46:47.960 other and rewarding people who give the
0:46:46.549,0:46:49.750 same answer that other people have
0:46:47.960,0:46:53.329 committed to and things like this but
0:46:49.750,0:46:56.660 like you can only try to approach the
0:46:53.329,0:46:58.670 had like the idea love kind of correct
0:46:56.660,0:47:02.960 truth like you can never 100% reach it
0:46:58.670,0:47:06.799 now you started aetherium in 2014-2015
0:47:02.960,0:47:10.039 um started started end of 2013 I mean it
0:47:06.799,0:47:12.079 watched in 2015 okay would you say let's
0:47:10.039,0:47:15.760 use launch data as an artificial sure
0:47:12.079,0:47:21.079 date would you say you are more or less
0:47:15.760,0:47:23.240 excited emotionally hmm then you were
0:47:21.079,0:47:27.579 when it started you've now been through
0:47:23.240,0:47:27.579 so you've logged some miles here hmm I
0:47:30.069,0:47:37.640 definitely definitely stay excited I
0:47:34.150,0:47:40.880 worked I think the main difference is
0:47:37.640,0:47:43.700 kind of more like definitely a kinda
0:47:40.880,0:47:46.099 excited in the sense of like four years
0:47:43.700,0:47:48.680 well definite and like I kind of as
0:47:46.099,0:47:51.349 opposed to indefinite like four years
0:47:48.680,0:47:54.140 yeah four years ago was about like hey
0:47:51.349,0:47:56.210 let's make this platform to kind of try
0:47:54.140,0:47:57.589 really a bunch of really cool things we
0:47:56.210,0:48:00.020 have no idea what's gonna happen and
0:47:57.589,0:48:02.630 let's just stick it out there and now
0:48:00.020,0:48:04.609 like we know things about things and
0:48:02.630,0:48:07.910 people are already doing we know things
0:48:04.609,0:48:09.740 about things that people wants to do on
0:48:07.910,0:48:12.890 wait hands we'll also know more about
0:48:09.740,0:48:15.140 Nick what the limitations are and so
0:48:12.890,0:48:17.390 instead of just being this kind of
0:48:15.140,0:48:19.849 extremely fuzzy dream of like let's
0:48:17.390,0:48:22.099 stick smart contracts and algorithms and
0:48:19.849,0:48:27.609 kind of trust us if I everything right
0:48:22.099,0:48:31.400 it's something that's kind of both more
0:48:27.609,0:48:34.160 moderate but also kind of more like
0:48:31.400,0:48:36.140 seeming much more like it I like it
0:48:34.160,0:48:37.819 actually has a big chance of kind of
0:48:36.140,0:48:41.029 transforming the world and of precisely
0:48:37.819,0:48:44.180 because that's when moderated to some
0:48:41.029,0:48:46.069 extent so you more if I gave you false
0:48:44.180,0:48:47.990 three choices and by the way smart
0:48:46.069,0:48:50.029 people always hate these things so feel
0:48:47.990,0:48:51.589 free to break the model mmm if I gave
0:48:50.029,0:48:53.710 you a choice between saying are you
0:48:51.589,0:48:55.180 mostly excited about
0:48:53.710,0:48:57.730 the technology and the amount of
0:48:55.180,0:48:59.410 innovation are you mostly excited about
0:48:57.730,0:49:02.830 the business opportunities for yourself
0:48:59.410,0:49:06.119 or are you mostly excited about the way
0:49:02.830,0:49:08.740 in which this could transform human life
0:49:06.119,0:49:11.560 would you be that would that be an easy
0:49:08.740,0:49:14.140 call or would you say I reject that
0:49:11.560,0:49:19.839 decision tree some mix over the first
0:49:14.140,0:49:21.550 and the third mm no I just like the
0:49:19.839,0:49:23.619 framing of business opportunities is
0:49:21.550,0:49:26.800 definitely kind of never ik like this is
0:49:23.619,0:49:28.510 weird I mean the despite and I've even I
0:49:26.800,0:49:30.880 get the sense that you don't love money
0:49:28.510,0:49:34.869 enough yeah this is true
0:49:30.880,0:49:36.910 okay hmm I mean it's weird because I for
0:49:34.869,0:49:38.320 a long time you have a lot of it yeah
0:49:36.910,0:49:40.540 well I have a lot of it and it's also
0:49:38.320,0:49:43.630 even weirder because I like for a long
0:49:40.540,0:49:45.700 time I subscribed so this kind of branch
0:49:43.630,0:49:47.530 of economics that basically says that
0:49:45.700,0:49:49.750 like love of money is like the best
0:49:47.530,0:49:55.839 motivation for B vote for people to have
0:49:49.750,0:49:58.660 an Randian um well in I'd say make in
0:49:55.839,0:50:00.760 that area but it's but I don't get that
0:49:58.660,0:50:03.849 I'll be honest I just don't get that
0:50:00.760,0:50:05.740 vibe right I mean there's I've
0:50:03.849,0:50:08.800 definitely kind of shifted a lot over
0:50:05.740,0:50:10.869 the years I think my experience even
0:50:08.800,0:50:13.300 within the crypto space itself has kind
0:50:10.869,0:50:17.560 of trend and given me a lot of new
0:50:13.300,0:50:21.339 information to work with more like the
0:50:17.560,0:50:24.000 this basically and then this goes back
0:50:21.339,0:50:26.680 to this kind of cryptocurrencies as a
0:50:24.000,0:50:33.940 microcosm of wider society thing right
0:50:26.680,0:50:37.030 like if you're like basically any like
0:50:33.940,0:50:38.859 any movements regardless of like what it
0:50:37.030,0:50:40.330 what the movement is for what its goals
0:50:38.859,0:50:42.339 are to be succeeded needs to be
0:50:40.330,0:50:43.900 sufficiently big and once something is
0:50:42.339,0:50:45.880 sufficiently big it needs to have
0:50:43.900,0:50:47.410 internal structure to a coordinated
0:50:45.880,0:50:49.960 initially of its objectives which means
0:50:47.410,0:50:52.270 that it suffers from governance issues
0:50:49.960,0:50:55.869 it suffers from public goods the issue
0:50:52.270,0:50:58.750 is it suffers from conflicts with
0:50:55.869,0:51:01.780 adjacent movements and suffers from
0:50:58.750,0:51:04.720 conflicts between its own values and its
0:51:01.780,0:51:06.940 and its own desire to succeed and so on
0:51:04.720,0:51:10.270 and so forth and like it needs to
0:51:06.940,0:51:12.849 come up with ways to answer like
0:51:10.270,0:51:14.109 basically almost the same kinds of hard
0:51:12.849,0:51:16.960 problems at the world as a whole is
0:51:14.109,0:51:19.119 working on well you know it's
0:51:16.960,0:51:22.839 interesting when I look at this sort of
0:51:19.119,0:51:24.700 world of people maybe had an epicenter
0:51:22.839,0:51:27.849 in the Bay Area though I think it's less
0:51:24.700,0:51:29.440 true now we're trying to figure out what
0:51:27.849,0:51:34.650 is the future and how do we get there
0:51:29.440,0:51:37.380 there's a very clear sense that people's
0:51:34.650,0:51:40.920 creativity and their intelligence is
0:51:37.380,0:51:44.170 correlated with their financial success
0:51:40.920,0:51:46.240 but it's not very tight and so there's
0:51:44.170,0:51:48.970 like an embarrassment that well that
0:51:46.240,0:51:50.920 person is super amazing and then mm-hmm
0:51:48.970,0:51:53.770 not doing all that well this person
0:51:50.920,0:51:56.410 somehow metabolizing amend this amount
0:51:53.770,0:51:58.359 this is something that I've definitely
0:51:56.410,0:52:01.150 have realized just from one of my
0:51:58.359,0:52:03.250 travels like I've interacted with a lot
0:52:01.150,0:52:04.750 of kind of super famous people in
0:52:03.250,0:52:07.059 different kinds of positions which
0:52:04.750,0:52:08.920 includes like some world leaders and
0:52:07.059,0:52:13.240 includes some kind of leaders of like
0:52:08.920,0:52:16.390 fields in cryptography and it in you
0:52:13.240,0:52:19.690 realize that like people in these
0:52:16.390,0:52:22.210 positions they are impressive but
0:52:19.690,0:52:24.700 they're not like super amazing godlike
0:52:22.210,0:52:26.109 impressive right something tomorrow some
0:52:24.700,0:52:27.849 of them are but then there's also super
0:52:26.109,0:52:29.559 amazing godlike impressive people that
0:52:27.849,0:52:31.210 just like don't get her to get that much
0:52:29.559,0:52:34.210 shit I don't know what I'm trying to get
0:52:31.210,0:52:37.630 at I think about like if you hang around
0:52:34.210,0:52:39.279 with musicians very often you'll have
0:52:37.630,0:52:41.170 some buddies a super famous musicians
0:52:39.279,0:52:42.069 and you want to who's really good and
0:52:41.170,0:52:45.730 they'll tell you some of you've never
0:52:42.069,0:52:50.470 heard of and musician's musician exactly
0:52:45.730,0:52:53.589 this yes right and so you know if I if I
0:52:50.470,0:52:56.109 gave the name of people who are famous
0:52:53.589,0:52:57.970 for being let's say physicists they're
0:52:56.109,0:52:59.890 very often the people on television as
0:52:57.970,0:53:02.260 physicists mm-hmm but they would all
0:52:59.890,0:53:03.460 point to some guy who doesn't give a lot
0:53:02.260,0:53:05.950 of interviews and say well that's the
0:53:03.460,0:53:10.890 top guy exactly like basically the
0:53:05.950,0:53:14.440 social status like is predicted by
0:53:10.890,0:53:17.529 confidence multiplied by like basically
0:53:14.440,0:53:19.299 publicity skill and that's half
0:53:17.529,0:53:20.590 correlated with competence for obvious
0:53:19.299,0:53:21.730 reasons right like those
0:53:20.590,0:53:22.930 people also know the people that have
0:53:21.730,0:53:23.920 the real confidence and that's one of
0:53:22.930,0:53:25.990 the things that I've always found really
0:53:23.920,0:53:28.900 interesting about people who have this
0:53:25.990,0:53:32.860 diehard belief that markets produce
0:53:28.900,0:53:36.250 justice which is I do think that success
0:53:32.860,0:53:41.950 in markets is somewhat correlated or has
0:53:36.250,0:53:44.050 been with things like productivity but
0:53:41.950,0:53:46.270 it's also correlated sometimes with how
0:53:44.050,0:53:48.340 predatory somebody can be or you know
0:53:46.270,0:53:51.460 how lucky they happen to be at a
0:53:48.340,0:53:55.600 particular moment and one of the
0:53:51.460,0:53:57.130 questions that I have is if you're
0:53:55.600,0:53:59.170 really interested in innovation which is
0:53:57.130,0:54:03.250 what I sort of pick up is you know the
0:53:59.170,0:54:06.910 main things how does something like
0:54:03.250,0:54:10.660 aetherium give us a possibility to
0:54:06.910,0:54:12.760 revitalize innovation after what many of
0:54:10.660,0:54:15.900 us consider a period of relative
0:54:12.760,0:54:17.740 stagnancy outside of the areas of
0:54:15.900,0:54:21.310 computation communication which
0:54:17.740,0:54:24.820 everybody knows have exploded hmm do you
0:54:21.310,0:54:30.660 think about how if cerium can mediate a
0:54:24.820,0:54:30.660 new Renaissance a new generative age
0:54:31.260,0:54:37.990 about it a little bit definitely and I
0:54:34.060,0:54:42.970 think I mean there's ten of etherium as
0:54:37.990,0:54:44.650 a platform for experiments in governance
0:54:42.970,0:54:47.740 and public goods funding is one thing I
0:54:44.650,0:54:50.350 mentioned and education is another thing
0:54:47.740,0:54:52.360 that I end of talk about in the end
0:54:50.350,0:54:54.400 obviously we do I mean I have a lot of
0:54:52.360,0:54:58.960 these blog posts on Vitalik dossier in
0:54:54.400,0:55:00.970 other forums and like they're one of the
0:54:58.960,0:55:04.510 big challenges that a for example is
0:55:00.970,0:55:06.430 that like for in and of Internet
0:55:04.510,0:55:08.170 educational resources in general there's
0:55:06.430,0:55:10.900 basically two kinds right there's like
0:55:08.170,0:55:13.270 papers and I Wikipedia and like
0:55:10.900,0:55:14.950 basically things that are technically
0:55:13.270,0:55:17.590 accurate but they're just not core ibly
0:55:14.950,0:55:19.510 not understand understandable at all and
0:55:17.590,0:55:21.490 we should not be forcing people to even
0:55:19.510,0:55:23.650 try reading them and then there's pops a
0:55:21.490,0:55:26.080 literature which is very accessible but
0:55:23.650,0:55:30.280 it's often just actively wrong in really
0:55:26.080,0:55:31.720 horrible ways and okay I personally even
0:55:30.280,0:55:33.370 before a theorem like I did Bitcoin
0:55:31.720,0:55:34.420 magazine for example like I've always
0:55:33.370,0:55:37.779 tried
0:55:34.420,0:55:41.410 to find this kind of middle gap this way
0:55:37.779,0:55:43.839 to explain can take concepts that are
0:55:41.410,0:55:45.700 technical and if expand them to a bride
0:55:43.839,0:55:48.519 a broader audience so they are more
0:55:45.700,0:55:51.569 accessible and like this to me has been
0:55:48.519,0:55:53.589 important in part because like I view
0:55:51.569,0:55:55.990 accessibility of information about the
0:55:53.589,0:55:58.210 technology as a precondition for even
0:55:55.990,0:55:59.950 the decentralization of the space like
0:55:58.210,0:56:01.720 if the thing technically runs on fifty
0:55:59.950,0:56:03.039 thousand computers but only forty two
0:56:01.720,0:56:04.660 people know how it works and your
0:56:03.039,0:56:07.960 decentralization indexes and fifty
0:56:04.660,0:56:10.450 thousand it's 42 you know and so there's
0:56:07.960,0:56:15.549 a very nice point yeah and so trying to
0:56:10.450,0:56:17.140 kind of improve like even how we in the
0:56:15.549,0:56:20.019 etherium community and if work on
0:56:17.140,0:56:23.470 innovation internally but so those are
0:56:20.019,0:56:27.700 kind of things that and if that happened
0:56:23.470,0:56:29.529 in blockchains as a novella as a lab for
0:56:27.700,0:56:31.680 trying out new things kind of first for
0:56:29.529,0:56:33.549 the blockchain space and then
0:56:31.680,0:56:35.890 potentially export it to other things
0:56:33.549,0:56:38.559 and then we can also look at head of
0:56:35.890,0:56:41.799 wall chains as something that can be
0:56:38.559,0:56:45.490 used to improve and create better
0:56:41.799,0:56:48.069 institutions so like one of the etherium
0:56:45.490,0:56:50.589 foundations researchers vlad sam fear he
0:56:48.069,0:56:51.940 actually got into aetherium because he
0:56:50.589,0:56:55.720 was working at how to improve academic
0:56:51.940,0:56:57.130 publishing and like he saw things like
0:56:55.720,0:56:59.890 you know the existing peer review
0:56:57.130,0:57:01.839 mechanisms and how they were just a very
0:56:59.890,0:57:05.259 flawed in a bunch of ways and he thought
0:57:01.839,0:57:07.450 that like hey here's potentially apply
0:57:05.259,0:57:09.309 form that we could use to build
0:57:07.450,0:57:12.369 something that does better and like
0:57:09.309,0:57:15.039 that's one of his core interests and why
0:57:12.369,0:57:17.410 he is even continuing to work on the
0:57:15.039,0:57:20.170 technology you know i hadn't understood
0:57:17.410,0:57:22.750 how insiders viewed peer review in an
0:57:20.170,0:57:25.569 academic context until he finance
0:57:22.750,0:57:28.329 professor got drunk at a party and said
0:57:25.569,0:57:31.029 you know that guy who's harassing you
0:57:28.329,0:57:32.710 and your research in finance you don't
0:57:31.029,0:57:34.660 know why he's doing i said well why do
0:57:32.710,0:57:37.119 you think he's doing so i know he says
0:57:34.660,0:57:40.210 we've created a system where our fees
0:57:37.119,0:57:44.380 are sky-high to consult and we do this
0:57:40.210,0:57:46.539 by making the number of professors in
0:57:44.380,0:57:47.400 our field small by controlling peer
0:57:46.539,0:57:49.079 review
0:57:47.400,0:57:50.670 and so that effectively we are at
0:57:49.079,0:57:54.359 conspiracy in restraint like this guy's
0:57:50.670,0:57:56.130 just telling me straight out that this
0:57:54.359,0:57:58.500 is a gating function to keep their
0:57:56.130,0:58:00.569 consulting fees high and that this guy
0:57:58.500,0:58:02.609 is gonna do everything that they tell
0:58:00.569,0:58:04.109 him to do because otherwise he can't
0:58:02.609,0:58:07.200 come into the club and charge these
0:58:04.109,0:58:09.869 rates that sounds about right
0:58:07.200,0:58:11.339 right so him that one of the app another
0:58:09.869,0:58:13.559 killer application so you have one
0:58:11.339,0:58:15.569 potential suite of applications which
0:58:13.559,0:58:18.359 have to do with facilitating illegality
0:58:15.569,0:58:20.910 some of that might regard will result in
0:58:18.359,0:58:24.180 net reduction of harm because you could
0:58:20.910,0:58:27.900 replace violence with math yes on the
0:58:24.180,0:58:31.410 other hand a place where you could have
0:58:27.900,0:58:36.779 a really positive effect is political
0:58:31.410,0:58:40.980 economy where by removing the human
0:58:36.779,0:58:43.289 ability to act badly you effectively
0:58:40.980,0:58:47.880 create a much fairer more representative
0:58:43.289,0:58:50.520 world exactly you know what do we do so
0:58:47.880,0:58:52.260 you have an interest in in the two
0:58:50.520,0:58:55.440 fields that I find Wikipedia can't
0:58:52.260,0:58:58.470 explain to any normal human being our
0:58:55.440,0:59:00.359 theoretical math and physics even
0:58:58.470,0:59:01.829 biology you can sort of guess what's
0:59:00.359,0:59:04.950 going on because you have something
0:59:01.829,0:59:07.260 concrete to the area but even biology
0:59:04.950,0:59:08.609 like you got a learn math the deeply
0:59:07.260,0:59:11.010 grok it because otherwise you're just
0:59:08.609,0:59:14.910 memorizing like names of chemicals well
0:59:11.010,0:59:19.260 but you could my here I have a PhD in
0:59:14.910,0:59:22.349 math if I try to read a math paper one
0:59:19.260,0:59:25.319 or two fields over from my own field
0:59:22.349,0:59:27.420 right I will do less well with it than
0:59:25.319,0:59:29.119 if I read a biology paper and even
0:59:27.420,0:59:32.220 though I've taken no class in biology
0:59:29.119,0:59:35.880 that sounds right yeah yeah like there's
0:59:32.220,0:59:38.299 a difference between the level of math
0:59:35.880,0:59:41.010 that you have to know it's you just
0:59:38.299,0:59:44.039 because it's important for you as a
0:59:41.010,0:59:45.720 philosopher and then and like that's
0:59:44.039,0:59:47.760 about the level of math that I think you
0:59:45.720,0:59:49.319 need even to be good at biology to be
0:59:47.760,0:59:52.410 good at economics to be good at a lot of
0:59:49.319,0:59:54.420 things right it's understanding like
0:59:52.410,0:59:57.119 principles even things like for example
0:59:54.420,0:59:59.460 if you have a trade-off between x and y
0:59:57.119,1:00:01.240 and right now you're optimizing entirely
0:59:59.460,1:00:03.490 for x and it's a smooth curve
1:00:01.240,1:00:04.900 then if he wants a little bit of Y then
1:00:03.490,1:00:06.940 you can get your first bit of Y at
1:00:04.900,1:00:10.030 almost like zero cost of X right and
1:00:06.940,1:00:12.460 that's just a prop like it's a property
1:00:10.030,1:00:13.960 of continuous functions that look from
1:00:12.460,1:00:16.960 the maximum of the derivative starts at
1:00:13.960,1:00:19.960 zero you know like if you kind of just
1:00:16.960,1:00:22.180 deeply kind of mentally grok about like
1:00:19.960,1:00:23.560 a couple hundred of these facts the way
1:00:22.180,1:00:25.810 you're deeply kind of mentally grow out
1:00:23.560,1:00:28.210 like how to walk then like you get a lot
1:00:25.810,1:00:30.130 but then from there there's also like
1:00:28.210,1:00:32.860 the frontiers and often I mean the
1:00:30.130,1:00:34.210 frontiers were most important well so
1:00:32.860,1:00:36.850 here's a weird thing I don't know how to
1:00:34.210,1:00:37.750 bring up when I try to understand crypto
1:00:36.850,1:00:40.680 as a space
1:00:37.750,1:00:43.600 I'm always confronted by how incredibly
1:00:40.680,1:00:46.390 Byzantine and impossible it is to
1:00:43.600,1:00:48.369 understand all of the acronyms all of
1:00:46.390,1:00:53.440 the sub pieces of history I mean it's an
1:00:48.369,1:00:56.650 incredibly fragmented experience in
1:00:53.440,1:01:02.280 which I spend a long period of time just
1:00:56.650,1:01:05.290 feeling moronic isn't it odd that like
1:01:02.280,1:01:07.240 etherium itself suffers from this this
1:01:05.290,1:01:09.420 problem it's hard to know what's going
1:01:07.240,1:01:12.580 on yeah it's definitely something that
1:01:09.420,1:01:15.220 we wants to fix so if I mean if you ever
1:01:12.580,1:01:16.540 have suggestions on like what
1:01:15.220,1:01:18.010 specifically we could make more
1:01:16.540,1:01:21.520 understandable I'm always happy to hear
1:01:18.010,1:01:23.700 those fantastic now one thing that I
1:01:21.520,1:01:27.190 think is really interesting is this
1:01:23.700,1:01:30.790 episode that occurred in the etherium
1:01:27.190,1:01:35.440 space in which you are faced with a very
1:01:30.790,1:01:40.000 serious question of leadership having to
1:01:35.440,1:01:42.910 do with an emergency that you could have
1:01:40.000,1:01:45.100 either allowed to follow the rules that
1:01:42.910,1:01:48.850 had been previously specified in some
1:01:45.100,1:01:50.650 sense or could where you could interject
1:01:48.850,1:01:53.140 a certain amount of human intervention
1:01:50.650,1:01:57.130 but thereby letting people know that
1:01:53.140,1:01:59.830 this was to some extent not mediated
1:01:57.130,1:02:01.270 only by rules and computers can you can
1:01:59.830,1:02:05.380 you say a little bit about this famous
1:02:01.270,1:02:07.660 incident and sure so in 2016 there was
1:02:05.380,1:02:11.050 this smart contract that a group called
1:02:07.660,1:02:13.050 salokya launched called the dao and do
1:02:11.050,1:02:15.040 stands for a decentralized autonomous
1:02:13.050,1:02:17.110 organization and such our my team
1:02:15.040,1:02:19.840 with about three years before and it
1:02:17.110,1:02:21.580 basically means that maybe you can have
1:02:19.840,1:02:24.850 a smart contract to this computer
1:02:21.580,1:02:27.130 program that controls digital assets and
1:02:24.850,1:02:30.280 if encode a set of rules for an
1:02:27.130,1:02:31.930 organization and like you can use this
1:02:30.280,1:02:33.580 kind of smart contract basically as a
1:02:31.930,1:02:36.430 replacement for things like companies
1:02:33.580,1:02:39.970 and so some I could decide to launch a
1:02:36.430,1:02:42.610 Dao and their Dao was intended to be
1:02:39.970,1:02:47.080 basically a decentralized VC fund so
1:02:42.610,1:02:48.910 people could apply the Dao would vote on
1:02:47.080,1:02:51.610 which projects were worth investing in
1:02:48.910,1:02:57.130 so leaderless rule-based yeah and
1:02:51.610,1:02:59.740 virtual exactly know is they hit hit all
1:02:57.130,1:03:02.320 the cypherpunk nodes that they're in the
1:02:59.740,1:03:05.710 right place okay and the thing launched
1:03:02.320,1:03:08.200 and we were all expecting it during its
1:03:05.710,1:03:10.600 kind of initial fundraising phase which
1:03:08.200,1:03:12.730 was also like an open public blockchain
1:03:10.600,1:03:15.430 process and to maybe get five million
1:03:12.730,1:03:18.130 dollars but then it got five and it got
1:03:15.430,1:03:19.900 ten and I got twenty I got fifty and a
1:03:18.130,1:03:23.950 hundred and then the price of youth went
1:03:19.900,1:03:26.710 up and I got two hundred and then when I
1:03:23.950,1:03:29.130 was sitting at AF friends was it all
1:03:26.710,1:03:31.990 alarming that it was so successful
1:03:29.130,1:03:33.970 after the 50 mark I definitely have
1:03:31.990,1:03:35.920 switched from excitement's to deep
1:03:33.970,1:03:38.050 apprehension but you know it's a
1:03:35.920,1:03:41.530 contract did you let on that that you
1:03:38.050,1:03:45.490 were feeling that way a bit okay yeah so
1:03:41.530,1:03:47.650 on a June 17th 2016 and when I was in
1:03:45.490,1:03:52.930 Shanghai at a a friend's apartment and
1:03:47.650,1:03:57.670 it was about fifteen thirty something in
1:03:52.930,1:04:00.160 the afternoon I saw a message in one of
1:03:57.670,1:04:02.350 the Skype chats that it was that I was
1:04:00.160,1:04:03.970 in and someone basically was saying hey
1:04:02.350,1:04:05.350 guys look at the Dow it seems like
1:04:03.970,1:04:08.770 there's some money coming out of it and
1:04:05.350,1:04:12.070 so I checked on the public black
1:04:08.770,1:04:14.350 Explorer on the blockchain and I saw oh
1:04:12.070,1:04:16.570 look that it seems like about two
1:04:14.350,1:04:19.420 million dollar has actually already been
1:04:16.570,1:04:21.670 removed from the Dow and more ethos and
1:04:19.420,1:04:24.370 of slowly being drained over time and so
1:04:21.670,1:04:26.880 I pinged the core developers and I asked
1:04:24.370,1:04:30.060 hey is this normal and
1:04:26.880,1:04:31.710 at first I was thinking okay the
1:04:30.060,1:04:33.510 alternative is unthinkable there has to
1:04:31.710,1:04:36.660 be a reasonable explanation for this
1:04:33.510,1:04:41.400 and so you were locked into some sort of
1:04:36.660,1:04:44.400 denial for at the beginning yes and the
1:04:41.400,1:04:46.710 developers looked at it and over the
1:04:44.400,1:04:48.540 next half-hour as more and more people
1:04:46.710,1:04:50.580 came online and started chattering with
1:04:48.540,1:04:54.350 each other it became clear that the
1:04:50.580,1:04:57.330 unthinkable has actually happened and I
1:04:54.350,1:05:01.470 actually burned about 20 of my own if
1:04:57.330,1:05:03.480 like basically just tossing the ethereum
1:05:01.470,1:05:05.670 blockchain in itself and just spamming
1:05:03.480,1:05:07.680 it with transactions to try to and if so
1:05:05.670,1:05:09.090 low the attacker I've seen is denial of
1:05:07.680,1:05:10.620 service yeah yeah just spam the
1:05:09.090,1:05:13.020 blockchain with dren that got all of my
1:05:10.620,1:05:14.970 listeners will know the terms okay so
1:05:13.020,1:05:16.260 that the attackers transactions could
1:05:14.970,1:05:17.850 not get in as quickly because the
1:05:16.260,1:05:20.100 attackers transact the attacker could
1:05:17.850,1:05:21.720 only withdraw something like a couple
1:05:20.100,1:05:24.210 hundred East with every transaction so
1:05:21.720,1:05:26.970 it was a slow process like in the hopes
1:05:24.210,1:05:29.130 that the developers would find some way
1:05:26.970,1:05:30.990 to ply was an intentional inefficiency
1:05:29.130,1:05:32.820 or was just that it was it was not
1:05:30.990,1:05:34.500 intentional so in some weird way the
1:05:32.820,1:05:35.940 inefficiency was a good thing yes it
1:05:34.500,1:05:37.620 gets even weirder there was an even
1:05:35.940,1:05:39.560 bigger and efficiency that would that
1:05:37.620,1:05:43.890 would prove to be an even better thing
1:05:39.560,1:05:46.290 so but then the developers however did
1:05:43.890,1:05:48.360 not find a way to plug the hole but the
1:05:46.290,1:05:50.730 attacker voluntarily stopped after
1:05:48.360,1:05:53.550 stealing about 4 million eath from the
1:05:50.730,1:05:55.740 dough but in any case the this is a
1:05:53.550,1:05:58.680 second in efficiency it voluntarily
1:05:55.740,1:06:01.200 stopped yeah there was a request made no
1:05:58.680,1:06:06.900 no as in the attacker just stopped ok
1:06:01.200,1:06:07.680 and and so here's the second and bigger
1:06:06.900,1:06:10.710 in efficiency
1:06:07.680,1:06:13.170 the money that was the attacker took out
1:06:10.710,1:06:14.600 the four million eighth it did not go
1:06:13.170,1:06:17.130 into the attacker swallow it immediately
1:06:14.600,1:06:20.550 instead it went into a child smart
1:06:17.130,1:06:22.050 contract and only after 35 days could
1:06:20.550,1:06:24.450 the attacker action we take that money
1:06:22.050,1:06:27.030 out and this was child smart contract
1:06:24.450,1:06:30.120 you mean a separate smart contract that
1:06:27.030,1:06:33.750 was created through a function call of
1:06:30.120,1:06:36.420 the main Dao smart contract ok so this
1:06:33.750,1:06:39.470 was also not intended right it was just
1:06:36.420,1:06:40.890 like a random quirk of this of fate that
1:06:39.470,1:06:43.080 there was this
1:06:40.890,1:06:44.940 big bug that was the biggest smart
1:06:43.080,1:06:47.910 contract theft in history up until that
1:06:44.940,1:06:50.280 point and it put the money into this
1:06:47.910,1:06:52.410 convenient box were just a conveniently
1:06:50.280,1:06:57.180 locked for 35 days where everyone could
1:06:52.410,1:07:00.540 stare and look at it oh yeah and the
1:06:57.180,1:07:02.580 soon after this there were calls
1:07:00.540,1:07:04.560 happening between core developers and
1:07:02.580,1:07:07.950 the proposal to remedy the situation
1:07:04.560,1:07:10.320 with a blockchain fork I came into play
1:07:07.950,1:07:12.840 right so basically what happened here is
1:07:10.320,1:07:15.120 the it was a blockchain fork an
1:07:12.840,1:07:19.230 emotional issue for this community yeah
1:07:15.120,1:07:20.850 so why is it so what I guess first of
1:07:19.230,1:07:24.150 all what is it exactly so explain what
1:07:20.850,1:07:25.830 what would happen so in general a
1:07:24.150,1:07:29.040 blockchain forcus on normal process
1:07:25.830,1:07:30.930 right you have an upgrade and the
1:07:29.040,1:07:33.720 developers of the etherium clients
1:07:30.930,1:07:36.390 implement code that basically says after
1:07:33.720,1:07:38.790 block number four three seven zero zero
1:07:36.390,1:07:40.170 zero zero stop processing blocks
1:07:38.790,1:07:41.640 according to the old rules start
1:07:40.170,1:07:43.260 processing blocks according to the new
1:07:41.640,1:07:47.250 rules which have extra features attached
1:07:43.260,1:07:53.000 and where blocks are just said packages
1:07:47.250,1:07:56.940 of transactions okay and B's and so ever
1:07:53.000,1:07:59.100 before this sub I know these code
1:07:56.940,1:08:01.110 patches are formally proposed there is
1:07:59.100,1:08:02.730 this month-long period of mini month
1:08:01.110,1:08:05.070 long period of deliberation we are
1:08:02.730,1:08:08.130 changes or proposed people discuss them
1:08:05.070,1:08:09.960 people talk about them and generally
1:08:08.130,1:08:12.450 it's agreed that these changes are good
1:08:09.960,1:08:14.160 and so people just go and download the
1:08:12.450,1:08:16.470 code and because everyone's downloaded
1:08:14.160,1:08:18.150 the code the blockchain after block four
1:08:16.470,1:08:19.320 three seven zero zero zero zero follows
1:08:18.150,1:08:22.290 these difference in better it's a very
1:08:19.320,1:08:24.300 warm and very human process yeah called
1:08:22.290,1:08:29.130 logic of a machine exactly
1:08:24.300,1:08:31.920 and so the dal Fork
1:08:29.130,1:08:34.350 it was also a fork it was also a code
1:08:31.920,1:08:38.550 change implemented by the developers of
1:08:34.350,1:08:41.610 the clients that is it was pushed out
1:08:38.550,1:08:43.530 through a new version of the different
1:08:41.610,1:08:45.900 clients that people could download and
1:08:43.530,1:08:49.320 users went ahead and voluntarily
1:08:45.900,1:08:51.000 downloaded it and it would basically
1:08:49.320,1:08:52.680 change the rules of the blockchain
1:08:51.000,1:08:53.849 except instead of changing them
1:08:52.680,1:08:55.859 permanently
1:08:53.849,1:08:58.079 it would only do what a single one time
1:08:55.859,1:09:01.529 change and the single one time change
1:08:58.079,1:09:03.509 basically said during block one one nine
1:09:01.529,1:09:06.599 two zero zero zero zero before
1:09:03.509,1:09:09.989 processing any transactions take the
1:09:06.599,1:09:11.790 ether that stuck in the this child
1:09:09.989,1:09:13.739 contract and move it into another
1:09:11.790,1:09:17.819 contract that could then basically
1:09:13.739,1:09:20.339 refund it all to the victims and so this
1:09:17.819,1:09:22.859 is a very kind of manual intervention
1:09:20.339,1:09:25.310 right it basically says like we all
1:09:22.859,1:09:27.420 agree it's a run code that just
1:09:25.310,1:09:29.159 irregularly takes this money and just
1:09:27.420,1:09:32.339 reassigns it so that's other thing so
1:09:29.159,1:09:34.469 the the it's very weird because you know
1:09:32.339,1:09:37.020 we always think in like a sci-fi movie
1:09:34.469,1:09:39.810 that some thing that you think is human
1:09:37.020,1:09:42.329 would rip off its mask and reveal itself
1:09:39.810,1:09:44.520 to be a computer and this is the reverse
1:09:42.329,1:09:47.609 exactly pewter face is ripped off
1:09:44.520,1:09:50.880 revealing humans behind this this
1:09:47.609,1:09:53.099 technological stack yes and I mean
1:09:50.880,1:09:56.730 ultimately like people talk about head
1:09:53.099,1:09:58.889 of blockchain immutability and like this
1:09:56.730,1:10:00.900 is this idea that basically you're not
1:09:58.889,1:10:03.119 supposed to do this sort of thing and
1:10:00.900,1:10:05.909 where does that supposed to come from
1:10:03.119,1:10:08.010 exactly it so like there is there's
1:10:05.909,1:10:09.810 definitely a sense in which it exists
1:10:08.010,1:10:11.190 technologically because like actually
1:10:09.810,1:10:14.369 pulling off one of these Forks is
1:10:11.190,1:10:16.139 incredibly hard and for example if it
1:10:14.369,1:10:18.300 was not the case that the money was
1:10:16.139,1:10:20.550 conveniently stuck there and one nice
1:10:18.300,1:10:22.079 little address for 35 days it would
1:10:20.550,1:10:24.179 basically not have been possible to do
1:10:22.079,1:10:26.280 it right because when as soon as you
1:10:24.179,1:10:27.719 announced this protocol change that says
1:10:26.280,1:10:29.550 we're gonna take money out of CR put it
1:10:27.719,1:10:30.840 in there the attacker could just move
1:10:29.550,1:10:33.510 the money from there to a different
1:10:30.840,1:10:34.770 address and basically you play this
1:10:33.510,1:10:37.349 cat-and-mouse game and the attacker
1:10:34.770,1:10:39.989 could win but sometimes there is this
1:10:37.349,1:10:41.940 possibility where you up so that we can
1:10:39.989,1:10:44.820 and just like do these interventions and
1:10:41.940,1:10:46.199 you can just decide to stop writing this
1:10:44.820,1:10:50.159 code and start running this other code
1:10:46.199,1:10:52.500 and the only reason why this has not
1:10:50.159,1:10:54.929 done more frequently is basically
1:10:52.500,1:10:57.060 because their existing norms right in
1:10:54.929,1:10:58.770 their existing norms in the blockchain
1:10:57.060,1:11:00.510 community of lads iam fear of the
1:10:58.770,1:11:03.150 researcher I mentioned before and if
1:11:00.510,1:11:05.849 calls them a Szabo's Ally and named
1:11:03.150,1:11:07.409 after nick szabo and and nick szabo
1:11:05.849,1:11:08.900 actually just likes the moniker
1:11:07.409,1:11:10.769 like it is a pretty accurate
1:11:08.900,1:11:12.900 representation of kind of his beliefs
1:11:10.769,1:11:15.110 witches and the beliefs of many in the
1:11:12.900,1:11:18.869 crypto community which is basically that
1:11:15.110,1:11:21.630 like even though it technically is code
1:11:18.869,1:11:24.840 run by humans we should act as though it
1:11:21.630,1:11:27.059 is code not run by humans and look
1:11:24.840,1:11:29.249 because it is digital gold right gold is
1:11:27.059,1:11:30.479 not run by humans gold is gold and so if
1:11:29.249,1:11:32.550 we want to make something that is a
1:11:30.479,1:11:34.289 light gold then even though we're
1:11:32.550,1:11:35.939 unfortunately stuck with this thing run
1:11:34.289,1:11:38.459 by humans we should what try as hard as
1:11:35.939,1:11:40.260 we can to pretend it's not and like this
1:11:38.459,1:11:42.719 was the ideology of a lot of people in
1:11:40.260,1:11:46.260 this space and the dal fork very much
1:11:42.719,1:11:50.789 went against this ideology and so even
1:11:46.260,1:11:52.409 though in my opinion like having norms
1:11:50.789,1:11:54.300 that you can't just like go and edit
1:11:52.409,1:11:57.150 whatever you want is valuable but like
1:11:54.300,1:11:58.769 when so such a large fraction of the
1:11:57.150,1:12:00.869 ecosystem is at stake it's worth
1:11:58.769,1:12:02.969 rethinking things but like other people
1:12:00.869,1:12:04.889 were and if even more rigid in this
1:12:02.969,1:12:06.209 regard and so there was this kind of
1:12:04.889,1:12:08.939 split in the community
1:12:06.209,1:12:10.709 and a portion of the community actually
1:12:08.939,1:12:12.389 did not download the updates right a
1:12:10.709,1:12:13.949 portion of the community did not
1:12:12.389,1:12:16.139 download these code patches and
1:12:13.949,1:12:17.820 implement the fork and they just said we
1:12:16.139,1:12:20.579 will continue running our own our old
1:12:17.820,1:12:22.559 chain and the old chain has since then
1:12:20.579,1:12:26.249 been called a theorem classic and it
1:12:22.559,1:12:30.650 runs to this day this is a fascinating
1:12:26.249,1:12:33.209 civil war you know in essence yes and
1:12:30.650,1:12:34.919 what I get out of this is that there's
1:12:33.209,1:12:37.949 this very weird thing which is that
1:12:34.919,1:12:41.039 people get very attached to ideologies
1:12:37.949,1:12:43.019 and then they come to understand why the
1:12:41.039,1:12:46.709 simplistic version of that ideology
1:12:43.019,1:12:49.079 can't possibly work in a warm human
1:12:46.709,1:12:51.059 system I watched this it you have you
1:12:49.079,1:12:53.550 ever gone to this festival called a
1:12:51.059,1:12:55.380 femoral which is sort of Burning Man on
1:12:53.550,1:12:56.909 the water it was I was part of it and I
1:12:55.380,1:12:58.709 got invited to it but I haven't had the
1:12:56.909,1:13:01.559 chance to go yet so it's kind of a
1:12:58.709,1:13:04.679 libertarian Waterworld in the Sacramento
1:13:01.559,1:13:08.219 Delta and what was interesting is is
1:13:04.679,1:13:10.229 that one year in order to come to the
1:13:08.219,1:13:11.820 festival you had to have a lecture and
1:13:10.229,1:13:14.189 you had to agree that you would receive
1:13:11.820,1:13:15.449 the lecture because of problems that had
1:13:14.189,1:13:17.249 happened the previous year
1:13:15.449,1:13:21.170 and you realize that these libertarians
1:13:17.249,1:13:24.260 were being forced to invent governance
1:13:21.170,1:13:27.469 and rather than just anarchy you had to
1:13:24.260,1:13:30.320 have some organized system and so one of
1:13:27.469,1:13:34.690 my questions is is that is that dream of
1:13:30.320,1:13:34.690 escape from the heavy hand of government
1:13:35.469,1:13:41.870 effectively not something to be pursued
1:13:39.040,1:13:43.969 inside of crypto space for the most part
1:13:41.870,1:13:45.710 because we realized that it is going to
1:13:43.969,1:13:47.890 require governance and that we can't
1:13:45.710,1:13:51.920 figure out a way to turn this into a
1:13:47.890,1:13:54.080 completely cold and methodical process
1:13:51.920,1:13:56.960 it depends on which portion of the dream
1:13:54.080,1:13:58.940 you subscribe to like the if the version
1:13:56.960,1:14:02.000 of the dream you subscribe to is the
1:13:58.940,1:14:05.199 dream that says that we can finally use
1:14:02.000,1:14:08.840 algorithms to I basically completely
1:14:05.199,1:14:13.190 eliminate humans ability to interfere in
1:14:08.840,1:14:15.920 things then like if if your goal is to
1:14:13.190,1:14:18.739 see that enforced 100 percent then like
1:14:15.920,1:14:22.760 no you're not going to get that if your
1:14:18.739,1:14:25.820 dream is that you dislike how
1:14:22.760,1:14:27.380 governments have had existing
1:14:25.820,1:14:29.840 governments and monopolies of violence
1:14:27.380,1:14:32.300 have hegemony over this social function
1:14:29.840,1:14:34.699 of coordination and enforcing structures
1:14:32.300,1:14:37.190 of rules and you want there to exist an
1:14:34.699,1:14:39.880 alternative then like that's something
1:14:37.190,1:14:44.750 that we can talk about right so I mean
1:14:39.880,1:14:48.800 if if the dream is to augments yes and I
1:14:44.750,1:14:50.719 mean I'd argue that the block chains
1:14:48.800,1:14:53.360 have a variant of necessary role now
1:14:50.719,1:14:55.250 especially a kind of given modern kind
1:14:53.360,1:14:58.130 of political trends work there basically
1:14:55.250,1:15:00.500 is no single traditional political body
1:14:58.130,1:15:01.850 that's accepted as trustworthy by the
1:15:00.500,1:15:04.310 entire world and it doesn't look like
1:15:01.850,1:15:07.670 there's going to be one but if your
1:15:04.310,1:15:10.160 dream is to and if completely over
1:15:07.670,1:15:11.870 overturn things and have some simplistic
1:15:10.160,1:15:13.870 notion of digital property rights as the
1:15:11.870,1:15:17.630 only thing that governs behavior then
1:15:13.870,1:15:19.820 that's something that like you can try
1:15:17.630,1:15:21.170 for but you're not going to succeed let
1:15:19.820,1:15:23.510 me try something else with you that I'm
1:15:21.170,1:15:26.179 curious about you and I are both plugged
1:15:23.510,1:15:29.030 in to this weird alternate world that
1:15:26.179,1:15:29.919 thinks very differently and I had Andrew
1:15:29.030,1:15:31.510 yang
1:15:29.919,1:15:35.050 in that chair and you saw that episode
1:15:31.510,1:15:38.010 of the the point before some people call
1:15:35.050,1:15:41.409 this neuro divergence that this is a non
1:15:38.010,1:15:46.380 neurotypical world and I would say that
1:15:41.409,1:15:50.590 both you and I exhibit some indicia of
1:15:46.380,1:15:52.300 not thinking along standard lines the
1:15:50.590,1:15:55.599 thing that occurred to me is that you
1:15:52.300,1:15:59.110 brought up slight star codex which is
1:15:55.599,1:16:02.679 this website that is extremely
1:15:59.110,1:16:03.699 influential in our shared world and I
1:16:02.679,1:16:06.579 was thinking about the difference
1:16:03.699,1:16:08.550 between slate star codex and CNN in
1:16:06.579,1:16:12.280 terms of sense making
1:16:08.550,1:16:16.869 is there any way in which the etherium
1:16:12.280,1:16:20.649 world can create a counterweight so that
1:16:16.869,1:16:22.630 the neurodivergent can rest the
1:16:20.649,1:16:25.840 stranglehold that seemingly the
1:16:22.630,1:16:28.899 neurotypical institutional world seems
1:16:25.840,1:16:32.229 to have on sense making it scale like is
1:16:28.899,1:16:33.989 there a way of promoting another blog in
1:16:32.229,1:16:37.149 this world would be like less wrong
1:16:33.989,1:16:39.429 there particular thinkers that I think
1:16:37.149,1:16:42.099 of as being very important influential I
1:16:39.429,1:16:44.499 think you've given to our breda grey and
1:16:42.099,1:16:47.139 Elliot sir you'd kasky there's like this
1:16:44.499,1:16:51.280 very different world that isn't well
1:16:47.139,1:16:53.050 known and in part I view podcasting is
1:16:51.280,1:16:55.719 like pirate radio which is the phrase I
1:16:53.050,1:16:58.929 keep your sum is that because you're
1:16:55.719,1:17:02.439 Russian yes what can we do potentially
1:16:58.929,1:17:05.139 using your technology to even the
1:17:02.439,1:17:07.979 playing field between corporate
1:17:05.139,1:17:10.360 sense-making and this kind of
1:17:07.979,1:17:13.139 home-brewed sense making that seems to
1:17:10.360,1:17:16.059 me to be of an infinitely superior level
1:17:13.139,1:17:20.409 hmm well not infinitely but quite
1:17:16.059,1:17:23.349 superior yeah so I think like once again
1:17:20.409,1:17:26.889 there's kind of two aspects to kind of
1:17:23.349,1:17:28.809 blockchain TM that I think are equally
1:17:26.889,1:17:30.280 valuable here one is the technology
1:17:28.809,1:17:32.199 itself and then the other is the
1:17:30.280,1:17:35.469 existing community around the technology
1:17:32.199,1:17:39.639 and I mean with the tech with the
1:17:35.469,1:17:43.119 technology itself I mean you can try to
1:17:39.639,1:17:43.600 like create and you know institutions
1:17:43.119,1:17:47.050 for
1:17:43.600,1:17:49.780 I could do even things like funding like
1:17:47.050,1:17:51.640 podcasts for example and like even like
1:17:49.780,1:17:53.380 things like this kind of get coin grants
1:17:51.640,1:17:56.080 quadratic voting for example it would be
1:17:53.380,1:17:58.120 a potentially a great way to kind of
1:17:56.080,1:18:02.440 funds media organizations that avoids
1:17:58.120,1:18:04.270 the pitfalls of both say a present-day
1:18:02.440,1:18:06.190 media which is funded by some
1:18:04.270,1:18:08.290 combination of battery of like
1:18:06.190,1:18:10.420 advertising and horrible work made
1:18:08.290,1:18:13.000 incentives and at the same time avoid
1:18:10.420,1:18:15.160 the pitfalls of like basically sent
1:18:13.000,1:18:18.460 accentually controlled media and create
1:18:15.160,1:18:20.080 a third alternative so and like it
1:18:18.460,1:18:22.750 doesn't even have to be quadratic voting
1:18:20.080,1:18:24.610 it could be some other kind of mechanism
1:18:22.750,1:18:26.980 for funding and blog chains could be
1:18:24.610,1:18:30.880 used as a base layer for that there's
1:18:26.980,1:18:36.130 also the end up watching community as a
1:18:30.880,1:18:38.680 group of people who care about the many
1:18:36.130,1:18:40.450 of these kinds of ideas and I mean even
1:18:38.680,1:18:43.600 a lot of etherion people are definitely
1:18:40.450,1:18:46.450 and some weight star codecs adjacent and
1:18:43.600,1:18:49.480 then I feel like I have tried my best to
1:18:46.450,1:18:52.120 kind of bring these worlds together and
1:18:49.480,1:18:54.360 get them to talk to each other in means
1:18:52.120,1:18:56.380 sometimes it is a challenge because
1:18:54.360,1:18:58.270 there's ways in which they're similar
1:18:56.380,1:19:02.140 and there's a lot of people who are in
1:18:58.270,1:19:05.230 both and there's also ways in which
1:19:02.140,1:19:07.030 they're sometimes different but those
1:19:05.230,1:19:09.970 those differences can be a good thing
1:19:07.030,1:19:11.950 yeah I guess I'm concerned that in our
1:19:09.970,1:19:17.470 we were coming up on an election in the
1:19:11.950,1:19:19.300 US and I view Fox News in the New York
1:19:17.470,1:19:23.320 Times and CNN is like watching
1:19:19.300,1:19:25.300 professional wrestling it's got a very
1:19:23.320,1:19:28.630 clear narrative structure before the
1:19:25.300,1:19:29.890 facts even come in yeah this is this is
1:19:28.630,1:19:31.990 actually one of the things I've only
1:19:29.890,1:19:36.540 really started noticing maybe in the
1:19:31.990,1:19:39.190 last like one to two years I think it's
1:19:36.540,1:19:41.230 narratives are something that like don't
1:19:39.190,1:19:43.870 seem like you're there when you're fully
1:19:41.230,1:19:47.200 inside of them but once you and have
1:19:43.870,1:19:49.240 step outside and you start seeing that
1:19:47.200,1:19:50.980 Nick wait these people are missing
1:19:49.240,1:19:53.200 something and they're making predictions
1:19:50.980,1:19:55.780 that turn out to be materially incorrect
1:19:53.200,1:19:56.830 like yeah there's no memory like there's
1:19:55.780,1:19:59.260 no cost
1:19:56.830,1:20:01.750 yeah yeah you want to there's no
1:19:59.260,1:20:04.420 accountability at all and it's something
1:20:01.750,1:20:07.180 that you just actively start thinking
1:20:04.420,1:20:11.730 seeking out how to move beyond yeah you
1:20:07.180,1:20:15.940 know I think figuring out a better
1:20:11.730,1:20:18.730 funding model for media organizations in
1:20:15.940,1:20:21.010 general seems because in some ways what
1:20:18.730,1:20:23.500 I'm concerned about is that something
1:20:21.010,1:20:26.380 like podcasting is almost a public good
1:20:23.500,1:20:28.630 and so that's probably a public good
1:20:26.380,1:20:30.910 well I'm advertising in the one thing
1:20:28.630,1:20:34.360 that right I keep I call it the business
1:20:30.910,1:20:37.360 model of last resort yes and we are
1:20:34.360,1:20:39.070 going with an ad-supported model because
1:20:37.360,1:20:41.560 I don't want to disguise we were
1:20:39.070,1:20:46.630 somebody offered to endow the podcast
1:20:41.560,1:20:48.310 not not my employer and I decided
1:20:46.630,1:20:50.170 against it because I think what I really
1:20:48.310,1:20:52.690 want to do is to try to figure out how
1:20:50.170,1:20:53.730 to improve the business model we've
1:20:52.690,1:20:57.970 talked about a couple different
1:20:53.730,1:21:01.210 variations on advertising in order to
1:20:57.970,1:21:04.150 make sure that controversial but very
1:21:01.210,1:21:06.010 sensible and level-headed people can
1:21:04.150,1:21:08.620 weather the storm that the big problem
1:21:06.010,1:21:11.620 that I keep seeing is that advertisers
1:21:08.620,1:21:15.460 pull when there's a coordinated campaign
1:21:11.620,1:21:19.570 to say drop that program or else yes and
1:21:15.460,1:21:21.940 there's a a need for something like the
1:21:19.570,1:21:24.850 blockchain or a smart contract to make
1:21:21.940,1:21:27.520 sure that you can't silence people who
1:21:24.850,1:21:29.890 are speaking decently just because
1:21:27.520,1:21:33.460 they've pissed off a very large activist
1:21:29.890,1:21:35.380 community right so do you see any way in
1:21:33.460,1:21:38.170 which the blockchain for example like I
1:21:35.380,1:21:40.930 might give up advertising if I could
1:21:38.170,1:21:46.300 figure out a way to fund not only this
1:21:40.930,1:21:49.290 program but allied programs so in 2011
1:21:46.300,1:21:52.180 when I was starting Bitcoin magazine I
1:21:49.290,1:21:54.040 well it started off with like with this
1:21:52.180,1:21:56.770 one anonymous person whose name I'll
1:21:54.040,1:21:59.800 never know who aside from Kiba his
1:21:56.770,1:22:02.050 internet handle and who was just paying
1:21:59.800,1:22:03.970 me five Bitcoin which back then was $4
1:22:02.050,1:22:07.240 per article to write articles for him
1:22:03.970,1:22:08.650 and I mean this was five times or lower
1:22:07.240,1:22:09.910 than a minimum wage but I loved it
1:22:08.650,1:22:10.660 because it was the higher highest wage
1:22:09.910,1:22:15.250 I've ever had
1:22:10.660,1:22:17.650 um and eventually despite paying me five
1:22:15.250,1:22:20.260 times less than minimum wage at Kiba I
1:22:17.650,1:22:22.830 ran out of money and like he's told me
1:22:20.260,1:22:22.830 hey maybe