Editing 12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine
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== Description == | |||
In this episode, Vitalik Buterin sits down with Eric to discuss ethereum, the wider world of crypto and heterodox economics. | |||
Taking note of the new development of blockchain in 2010, Eric wrote an essay called “Go Virtual Young Man”. A few years later, a Thiel Fellow named Vitalik created a virtual machine with an idiosyncratic smart contract system and a currency. Ironically, Eric had recently become a Managing Director at Thiel Capital. Perennially circling each other intellectually, the two now sit down in person to discuss economic paradigm shifts, crypto and the future of online sovereignty and social coordination. | |||
[[ | |||
<span class="button">[[ep11 | Previous Episode]]</span> <span class="button">[https://art19.com/shows/the-portal/episodes/777009b2-9a58-431f-9237-0581716107a8 Listen to Episode 12]</span> <span class="button">[https://rss.art19.com/episodes/777009b2-9a58-431f-9237-0581716107a8.mp3 Download episode (mp3)]</span> <span class="button">[https://youtu.be/8TwNNgiNZ7Y Watch Episode 12]</span> <span class="button">[[ep13 | Next Episode]]</span> | |||
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== Sponsors == | == Sponsors == | ||
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== Transcript == | == Transcript == | ||
==== Unedited Transcript ==== | ==== Unedited Transcript ==== | ||
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hello you found the portal | |||
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I'm your host Eric Weinstein and I'm | |||
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sitting here today with metallic beaut | |||
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uhrin the leader and a founder of the | |||
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etherium world of cryptocurrencies and | |||
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smart contracts welcome to the portal | |||
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thank you it's good to be here Eric it's | |||
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terrific to have you now in general when | |||
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I see you interviewed immediately | |||
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everybody goes straight to crypto | |||
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currencies in a Myriam but one of the | |||
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things that I found fascinating about | |||
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your story is is that in order to be a | |||
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good steward of this new and emerging | |||
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economics you've actually applied | |||
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yourself a great deal to standard and | |||
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regular economic theory and I was | |||
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curious if I understand correctly you | |||
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dropped out of college after a year | |||
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you're self-taught in economics but | |||
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you've taken a real interest in | |||
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understanding how markets and economic | |||
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theory work is that a fair description | |||
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yeah I think so and economics has been | |||
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of an interest for me definitely for a | |||
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long time I mean when I discovered | |||
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Bitcoin back in 2011 and I was still in | |||
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high school it was this kind of | |||
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interesting confluence of ideas that I | |||
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was already pretty attracted to so open | |||
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source culture that was something that a | |||
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and a good friend from high school a | |||
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Christopher all I had already and if | |||
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indoctrinated me with really well I'm | |||
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the of the mathematical in cryptographic | |||
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aspects also libertarianism in Austrian | |||
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economics was kind of the zeitgeist of | |||
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the Bitcoin space at the day and those | |||
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were of ideas that I definitely have | |||
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found philosophically quite attractive | |||
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at that time and you know I was | |||
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definitely curious and I read a bunch of | |||
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books a yeah and read the Austrian | |||
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economics Kanaan because that's what the | |||
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Bitcoin people were kind of talking | |||
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about all day I read some kind of | |||
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behavioral economics literature Ariely | |||
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Kahneman and | |||
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Nakia D&E and all of those people just | |||
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because I knew that I had to read other | |||
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stuff for balance um and yeah and also | |||
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economics itself is a kind in pretty | |||
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mathematical and I've subject well kind | |||
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of right it's it's on the borderline | |||
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because it's kind of both mathematical | |||
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and you got your curves and your | |||
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derivatives and your intersections but | |||
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also it's humanity is right it's like | |||
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really at this intersection of like both | |||
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figuring out how to apply these models | |||
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to and of specific cases and also trying | |||
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to figure out well which models are | |||
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really correct in the first place and | |||
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like the first question you can't answer | |||
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with math but the second question you | |||
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really can't and you need other kinds of | |||
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thinking as well | |||
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well this is an area of my own interest | |||
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because the way I see it economics is | |||
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odd in a way that very few people I | |||
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think have appreciated in that if we | |||
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take what could be argued to be our two | |||
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greatest ideas in scientific scientific | |||
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man let's say one would be sort of the | |||
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geometric dynamics of physics and | |||
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economics has been constructed to be and | |||
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as if physics if you will and on the | |||
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other hand and inherits from the theory | |||
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of selection you could say that markets | |||
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are the continuation of systems of | |||
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selective pressures by other means and | |||
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so what happens when our two greatest | |||
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ideas touch each other and they do it in | |||
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a place which has very bizarre | |||
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properties by my way of thinking that is | |||
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that economists are on the one hand very | |||
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rigorous thinkers and are also very | |||
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susceptible to what we might call | |||
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political economy and distorted thinking | |||
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does that ring true to you yeah | |||
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definitely there's definitely this kind | |||
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of combination of I think for on the one | |||
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hand you have these mathematical | |||
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formulas and on the other hand these | |||
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assumptions and often like the | |||
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assumptions can be pretty pretty well | |||
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hidden and they're kind of difficult to | |||
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see at first glance right in | |||
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like it really can be subtle right so | |||
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like one of the arguments that | |||
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economists tend to put forward is | |||
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basically like mutually beneficial | |||
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transactions are but are beneficial and | |||
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so like we should not interfere with | |||
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them right like if I have a client | |||
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battle and I I want to sell you the | |||
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Klein bottle you're willing to pay five | |||
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dollars then I clearly value it at less | |||
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than five dollars you evaluated more | |||
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than five dollars therefore the | |||
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transactions on net good and like I | |||
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therefore I should give you the bottle | |||
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and you should give me the money and | |||
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that's what we would do but at the the | |||
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reasons why that 10 sometimes breaks | |||
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down liquor in many ways more subtle | |||
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right like first you have monopoly | |||
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issues like if I'm the only person | |||
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selling wine bottles then I might want | |||
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to sell them at a yeah and a higher | |||
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price than you'd be willing to accept | |||
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because I want to extract more value and | |||
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sometimes the things that matter most to | |||
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society aren't things that we can | |||
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transfer between people from one person | |||
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to another like wine bottles but like | |||
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public goods and like the biggest public | |||
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good of all is sort of is the idea right | |||
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and an idea well if I have an idea and I | |||
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give you the idea I still have the idea | |||
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so it's something that once you release | |||
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it it's out there and there isn't this | |||
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kind of property of that so you know | |||
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should we just pause just briefly to | |||
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talk about what a public good is yeah so | |||
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a public good is technically defined | |||
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within economics many people have an | |||
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intuitive idea as something which is as | |||
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you're stating has this property of | |||
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inexhaustibility mm-hm | |||
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and then the other attribute would be | |||
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excludability | |||
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which is non excludability formal sorry | |||
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nuts non excludability | |||
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sorry the the attribute of excludability | |||
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and is used to define a public good so | |||
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if something is inexhaustible and in | |||
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excludable then it has this weird | |||
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property that even hardline economists | |||
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would agree that the market may fail to | |||
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price in fact will fail to price the | |||
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value to society of that object so there | |||
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is an | |||
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mission within economics that there are | |||
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zones of failure right | |||
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well I guess the kind of the big kind of | |||
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rethinking that needs to happen is that | |||
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there is a long been this kind of | |||
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site-geist to that private goods like | |||
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things that I have and if I give it to | |||
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you I don't have it and you have it are | |||
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the norm and public goods are a rare | |||
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exception but like really public goods | |||
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are pretty darn important right like if | |||
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we didn't have public goods then we'd be | |||
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a trading sticks and B and Bear pelts | |||
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and we basically still be cavemen like | |||
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they're basically the like an army would | |||
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be a public yeah yeah and or me well | |||
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armies are interesting cuz there are | |||
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kind of to us like in a medium scale | |||
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context or a public good and in the | |||
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large-scale context or a public bad | |||
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because if everyone's army is we're | |||
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forced to be cut down by a factor of 10 | |||
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like we'd all be better off | |||
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so economics is like really subtle that | |||
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way especially once you have kind of two | |||
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layers of scale I'd play sure now one | |||
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thing that I worry a lot about that | |||
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almost nobody seems to join me in is | |||
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that in our mutual world I don't know | |||
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what to call it of people who are | |||
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experimenting with what I would say the | |||
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mainstream would consider far out ideas | |||
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like radical life extension crypto | |||
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currencies is a you know potentially | |||
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being rival risks with sovereign | |||
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currencies but in our world we talk a | |||
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lot about the abundance economy in a | |||
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world of abundance and I'm terrified of | |||
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a world of abundance because one of the | |||
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properties that software has had is that | |||
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it has replaced physical goods and | |||
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services which have these attributes | |||
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they are not public with small files and | |||
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when a small file is not encrypted it | |||
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has the attributes of a public good and | |||
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therefore value and price can can castle | |||
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that's terrifying because then this | |||
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weird thing of markets which allows us | |||
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respite from dictatorship in somebody | |||
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directing our activities and allows us | |||
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to self-direct goes | |||
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away because things can't be priced | |||
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accurately are you do you have any does | |||
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that have any purchase on your thinking | |||
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yeah so and I think give definitely you | |||
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kind of struck at a very important point | |||
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though I think and if my own framing of | |||
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the point is slightly different no I | |||
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think like first of all like you start | |||
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off by think by realizing that kind of | |||
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private property and things is not | |||
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something that fell out of the sky it's | |||
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a social technology right it's that we | |||
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have these kind of norms that basically | |||
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say oh you kid we will create this kind | |||
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of mapping from objects to people and if | |||
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an object as maps to you then you're | |||
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allowed to do basically whatever the | |||
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hell you want with it and other people | |||
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cannot do anything with it without your | |||
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permission | |||
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and if that concept did not exist then | |||
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physical objects would be public goods | |||
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right because like if there's a klein | |||
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bottle over here the Quine bottle would | |||
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be there but like really anyone could | |||
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take it and if you produce wine bottles | |||
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then like you're not producing something | |||
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for yourself you're producing something | |||
0:10:00.230,0:10:04.180 | |||
for pretty much different the first | |||
0:10:01.699,0:10:07.370 | |||
person who comes along and grabs it and | |||
0:10:04.180,0:10:10.370 | |||
so property rights right are this kind | |||
0:10:07.370,0:10:14.000 | |||
of social technology that helps make a | |||
0:10:10.370,0:10:15.410 | |||
private good economy is tractable and we | |||
0:10:14.000,0:10:17.149 | |||
could consider making social | |||
0:10:15.410,0:10:18.769 | |||
technologies to make public great | |||
0:10:17.149,0:10:21.309 | |||
economies tractable right like the | |||
0:10:18.769,0:10:24.079 | |||
existence of public goods by itself is | |||
0:10:21.309,0:10:26.360 | |||
and it's not good or bad like arguably | |||
0:10:24.079,0:10:28.040 | |||
it's even good because it means that | |||
0:10:26.360,0:10:30.649 | |||
people can't cooperate with each other | |||
0:10:28.040,0:10:33.620 | |||
on such large scales the bad thing is | |||
0:10:30.649,0:10:35.120 | |||
that we don't really have good tools for | |||
0:10:33.620,0:10:37.819 | |||
handling it and specifically we don't | |||
0:10:35.120,0:10:42.620 | |||
have good tools for handling yet that | |||
0:10:37.819,0:10:45.410 | |||
managed to simultaneously avoid both not | |||
0:10:42.620,0:10:48.199 | |||
giving good results and like basically | |||
0:10:45.410,0:10:51.230 | |||
being centralized in dictatorial and so | |||
0:10:48.199,0:10:53.389 | |||
this is where my interest in radical | |||
0:10:51.230,0:10:55.160 | |||
exchange comes in so this was this a | |||
0:10:53.389,0:10:57.949 | |||
movement that was started by gone while | |||
0:10:55.160,0:11:00.889 | |||
a couple of years ago when he wrote this | |||
0:10:57.949,0:11:02.630 | |||
a radical markets book and he advanced | |||
0:11:00.889,0:11:04.639 | |||
some of his proposals like harberger | |||
0:11:02.630,0:11:05.860 | |||
taxes and a quadratic voting were the | |||
0:11:04.639,0:11:09.670 | |||
ones that | |||
0:11:05.860,0:11:12.579 | |||
and of the most popular and the and of | |||
0:11:09.670,0:11:15.750 | |||
the core and if idea behind the ideas | |||
0:11:12.579,0:11:18.160 | |||
basically as like let's creates | |||
0:11:15.750,0:11:21.279 | |||
structures of kind of norms and | |||
0:11:18.160,0:11:22.690 | |||
incentives that try to have the best | |||
0:11:21.279,0:11:27.339 | |||
properties that we can get out of | |||
0:11:22.690,0:11:30.010 | |||
markets but do you do so without like | |||
0:11:27.339,0:11:32.200 | |||
basically economically breaking in the | |||
0:11:30.010,0:11:34.839 | |||
way that we know and if existing | |||
0:11:32.200,0:11:36.730 | |||
property right systems do once you enter | |||
0:11:34.839,0:11:38.350 | |||
a world where none of everything that | |||
0:11:36.730,0:11:40.839 | |||
you build just inherently affects | |||
0:11:38.350,0:11:42.670 | |||
millions of people well this is this is | |||
0:11:40.839,0:11:45.760 | |||
an interesting perspective you of course | |||
0:11:42.670,0:11:48.490 | |||
are famous for implementing this | |||
0:11:45.760,0:11:50.709 | |||
aetherium protocol but before we ever | |||
0:11:48.490,0:11:53.829 | |||
get to computer protocols there are sort | |||
0:11:50.709,0:11:55.450 | |||
of legal and structural protocols that | |||
0:11:53.829,0:11:57.820 | |||
we impose upon ourselves in the form of | |||
0:11:55.450,0:12:01.570 | |||
government and markets that are | |||
0:11:57.820,0:12:06.089 | |||
subordinate to government and there's a | |||
0:12:01.570,0:12:09.390 | |||
weird way in which you may start a | |||
0:12:06.089,0:12:12.610 | |||
process by which you write down rules | |||
0:12:09.390,0:12:15.370 | |||
for how a society should function but | |||
0:12:12.610,0:12:17.589 | |||
once those rules are written down you | |||
0:12:15.370,0:12:19.930 | |||
may discover all sorts of unintended | |||
0:12:17.589,0:12:23.110 | |||
properties of that rule set and there's | |||
0:12:19.930,0:12:26.860 | |||
a real question can we actually unhook | |||
0:12:23.110,0:12:32.290 | |||
ourselves from the killer app that is | |||
0:12:26.860,0:12:34.209 | |||
capitalism or American democracy and if | |||
0:12:32.290,0:12:39.279 | |||
we start to realize that that app is | |||
0:12:34.209,0:12:41.470 | |||
running out of control I guess in for | |||
0:12:39.279,0:12:44.230 | |||
and of myself as a enough social | |||
0:12:41.470,0:12:46.029 | |||
technologist and I definitely don't | |||
0:12:44.230,0:12:48.370 | |||
think that we should be kind of | |||
0:12:46.029,0:12:51.550 | |||
overturning entire countries with the | |||
0:12:48.370,0:12:53.459 | |||
new mechanisms overnight I think and I | |||
0:12:51.550,0:12:58.360 | |||
was insinuating oh definitely I think | |||
0:12:53.459,0:13:00.490 | |||
like that's figuring out how to kind of | |||
0:12:58.360,0:13:02.500 | |||
solve like grand problems of humanity is | |||
0:13:00.490,0:13:04.690 | |||
a long-term goal but I mean sure term | |||
0:13:02.500,0:13:08.320 | |||
goals are there is definitely can make | |||
0:13:04.690,0:13:11.610 | |||
better right so I and this is actually | |||
0:13:08.320,0:13:13.870 | |||
part of why I find a cryptocurrency and | |||
0:13:11.610,0:13:17.140 | |||
blockchains interesting because they are | |||
0:13:13.870,0:13:18.810 | |||
in a lot of ways this ideal ground for | |||
0:13:17.140,0:13:22.500 | |||
economic experimentation | |||
0:13:18.810,0:13:26.310 | |||
different types great so I to give one | |||
0:13:22.500,0:13:28.590 | |||
concrete example and in so one of the | |||
0:13:26.310,0:13:30.360 | |||
ideas that go on while and myself have | |||
0:13:28.590,0:13:33.050 | |||
come up with and are pushing forward is | |||
0:13:30.360,0:13:36.510 | |||
something called quadratic funding and | |||
0:13:33.050,0:13:39.779 | |||
the way that quadratic funding works is | |||
0:13:36.510,0:13:41.970 | |||
roughly this right so you have a central | |||
0:13:39.779,0:13:43.470 | |||
kind of pool of funding and you could | |||
0:13:41.970,0:13:44.820 | |||
imagine this coming from a government | |||
0:13:43.470,0:13:46.620 | |||
you could imagine this coming from | |||
0:13:44.820,0:13:50.330 | |||
wealthy donors you could imagine it just | |||
0:13:46.620,0:13:52.740 | |||
in being put together by some like | |||
0:13:50.330,0:13:55.860 | |||
crypto economic protocol it could come | |||
0:13:52.740,0:13:58.770 | |||
from anywhere and then you allow people | |||
0:13:55.860,0:14:01.410 | |||
to basically set up projects and you | |||
0:13:58.770,0:14:03.180 | |||
what people say I have a project here is | |||
0:14:01.410,0:14:05.700 | |||
something that I'm doing and if you like | |||
0:14:03.180,0:14:07.980 | |||
this then you can donate to me and give | |||
0:14:05.700,0:14:10.529 | |||
what people donate to projects and then | |||
0:14:07.980,0:14:13.440 | |||
the core of the mechanism is basically | |||
0:14:10.529,0:14:15.120 | |||
that if there is a projects and multiple | |||
0:14:13.440,0:14:17.700 | |||
people donate to so there's some | |||
0:14:15.120,0:14:20.880 | |||
projects you donate to it and someone | |||
0:14:17.700,0:14:23.370 | |||
else donates to it as well then your | |||
0:14:20.880,0:14:24.839 | |||
donation doesn't just benefit you it | |||
0:14:23.370,0:14:26.339 | |||
also benefits the other person and the | |||
0:14:24.839,0:14:28.740 | |||
other person's donation doesn't just | |||
0:14:26.339,0:14:31.560 | |||
benefit them it also benefits you and so | |||
0:14:28.740,0:14:33.180 | |||
to kind of counteract that kind of | |||
0:14:31.560,0:14:35.700 | |||
market failure the mechanism basically | |||
0:14:33.180,0:14:37.650 | |||
says well we're gonna multiply the | |||
0:14:35.700,0:14:38.850 | |||
effect of your donation by two and | |||
0:14:37.650,0:14:41.790 | |||
multiply the effect of the other | |||
0:14:38.850,0:14:43.380 | |||
person's donation by two and so now both | |||
0:14:41.790,0:14:45.510 | |||
of your incentives are kind of aligned | |||
0:14:43.380,0:14:47.430 | |||
with the whole and you extend this | |||
0:14:45.510,0:14:48.990 | |||
mechanism so instead of supporting two | |||
0:14:47.430,0:14:51.150 | |||
people it supports an arbitrary number | |||
0:14:48.990,0:14:53.430 | |||
of people and you kind of calculate | |||
0:14:51.150,0:14:57.630 | |||
these subsidies across all possible | |||
0:14:53.430,0:14:59.370 | |||
pairs of people and what you get is this | |||
0:14:57.630,0:15:00.930 | |||
formula that basically says you let | |||
0:14:59.370,0:15:02.820 | |||
people donate to different projects you | |||
0:15:00.930,0:15:04.890 | |||
look at how many people donated and how | |||
0:15:02.820,0:15:06.870 | |||
much money you've donated and based on | |||
0:15:04.890,0:15:09.330 | |||
this from the central pool of funding | |||
0:15:06.870,0:15:11.880 | |||
you give this extra subsidy and so it | |||
0:15:09.330,0:15:16.650 | |||
basically is like a market for public | |||
0:15:11.880,0:15:18.480 | |||
goods right and in the etherium | |||
0:15:16.650,0:15:20.190 | |||
ecosystem there is something called that | |||
0:15:18.480,0:15:22.440 | |||
get coin grants where we've basically | |||
0:15:20.190,0:15:25.589 | |||
started like trying to use this | |||
0:15:22.440,0:15:27.510 | |||
mechanism to fund public goods inside | |||
0:15:25.589,0:15:30.209 | |||
the etherium ecosystem right so this | |||
0:15:27.510,0:15:32.670 | |||
could be implementations of the etherium | |||
0:15:30.209,0:15:34.320 | |||
protocol it could be scaling solutions | |||
0:15:32.670,0:15:37.530 | |||
could be wallets it could be educational | |||
0:15:34.320,0:15:39.830 | |||
resources and we've had a and of tests | |||
0:15:37.530,0:15:42.120 | |||
around recently with about and if | |||
0:15:39.830,0:15:44.340 | |||
$200,000 in this central matching pool | |||
0:15:42.120,0:15:47.010 | |||
and it recently finished and you can go | |||
0:15:44.340,0:15:49.410 | |||
to a get coin dot Co slash grants to see | |||
0:15:47.010,0:15:51.210 | |||
the results and we got contributions | |||
0:15:49.410,0:15:52.890 | |||
from hundreds of people and the results | |||
0:15:51.210,0:15:56.750 | |||
a gave were actually pretty reasonable | |||
0:15:52.890,0:16:00.240 | |||
so in tests yeah and and so I I think | |||
0:15:56.750,0:16:03.360 | |||
cerium could have a lot of value is and | |||
0:16:00.240,0:16:05.150 | |||
just being a test net in bed for and | |||
0:16:03.360,0:16:07.980 | |||
decentralized governance and | |||
0:16:05.150,0:16:10.200 | |||
decentralized public good funding | |||
0:16:07.980,0:16:12.360 | |||
infrastructure of this kind well I think | |||
0:16:10.200,0:16:13.860 | |||
that that's fascinating I guess one of | |||
0:16:12.360,0:16:16.620 | |||
the ways in which I would understand | |||
0:16:13.860,0:16:18.570 | |||
that is you know when my wife who's an | |||
0:16:16.620,0:16:21.150 | |||
economist and I talk about this stuff we | |||
0:16:18.570,0:16:23.250 | |||
often talk about a market democracy has | |||
0:16:21.150,0:16:25.230 | |||
these two voting systems one is one | |||
0:16:23.250,0:16:25.980 | |||
dollar one vote and the other is one | |||
0:16:25.230,0:16:27.480 | |||
person one vote | |||
0:16:25.980,0:16:30.530 | |||
theoretically anyway even if that's | |||
0:16:27.480,0:16:33.030 | |||
honor only in the debris I and like | |||
0:16:30.530,0:16:35.040 | |||
liberal democracy does this horrible | |||
0:16:33.030,0:16:36.570 | |||
thing of like treating these s opposite | |||
0:16:35.040,0:16:37.920 | |||
poles where something is either one or | |||
0:16:36.570,0:16:39.270 | |||
the other and they're and they're often | |||
0:16:37.920,0:16:41.370 | |||
fighting each other one really | |||
0:16:39.270,0:16:41.700 | |||
everything's a spectrum and I like that | |||
0:16:41.370,0:16:43.470 | |||
a lot | |||
0:16:41.700,0:16:45.870 | |||
I mean an another thing that we've been | |||
0:16:43.470,0:16:48.410 | |||
discussing recently and this again is | |||
0:16:45.870,0:16:51.510 | |||
sort of drink with with Pia Milani is | |||
0:16:48.410,0:16:54.060 | |||
thinking about the Chicago approximation | |||
0:16:51.510,0:16:56.430 | |||
you've got some reality that's | |||
0:16:54.060,0:16:59.220 | |||
incredibly nonlinear and complicated and | |||
0:16:56.430,0:17:01.110 | |||
then weirdly yeah in a one of these | |||
0:16:59.220,0:17:03.990 | |||
famous instances where the map is not | |||
0:17:01.110,0:17:07.310 | |||
the territory you take this incredibly | |||
0:17:03.990,0:17:09.210 | |||
simplified world where agents have this | |||
0:17:07.310,0:17:10.830 | |||
properties you can't even believe you | |||
0:17:09.210,0:17:12.990 | |||
would ascribe to a human being where you | |||
0:17:10.830,0:17:16.080 | |||
thought Homo economicus and you it's | |||
0:17:12.990,0:17:18.270 | |||
perfectly rational and it it has all of | |||
0:17:16.080,0:17:20.610 | |||
these characteristics like an automaton | |||
0:17:18.270,0:17:24.060 | |||
that only makes rational decisions and | |||
0:17:20.610,0:17:26.280 | |||
then you impose that like through law | |||
0:17:24.060,0:17:29.550 | |||
and economics programs and suddenly | |||
0:17:26.280,0:17:32.280 | |||
you've distorted your society by taking | |||
0:17:29.550,0:17:34.530 | |||
the map as the territory so seriously | |||
0:17:32.280,0:17:38.720 | |||
that you don't realize that you're | |||
0:17:34.530,0:17:44.040 | |||
destroying something and distorting yeah | |||
0:17:38.720,0:17:46.500 | |||
no that's definitely and I think it's a | |||
0:17:44.040,0:17:49.140 | |||
social it's one approximation | |||
0:17:46.500,0:17:50.820 | |||
and you mean we're never going to have | |||
0:17:49.140,0:17:52.860 | |||
approximations that are perfect because | |||
0:17:50.820,0:17:54.210 | |||
the world is just so we're glad to hear | |||
0:17:52.860,0:17:58.169 | |||
that yeah and the world is just so | |||
0:17:54.210,0:18:01.140 | |||
complicated and so even rapidly changing | |||
0:17:58.169,0:18:03.419 | |||
in a 21st century like aprox in all | |||
0:18:01.140,0:18:05.070 | |||
approximations are bullshit but like you | |||
0:18:03.419,0:18:06.480 | |||
have to find a couple of good ones that | |||
0:18:05.070,0:18:07.980 | |||
work reasonably well and make progress | |||
0:18:06.480,0:18:09.419 | |||
for us and I think that one of the | |||
0:18:07.980,0:18:11.760 | |||
things that's unfairly done to | |||
0:18:09.419,0:18:13.830 | |||
cryptocurrencies is that we expect them | |||
0:18:11.760,0:18:16.919 | |||
to solve all of the problems that | |||
0:18:13.830,0:18:19.110 | |||
already cropped up yes in our forms of | |||
0:18:16.919,0:18:21.870 | |||
governance and our forms of currency in | |||
0:18:19.110,0:18:24.559 | |||
exchange in court systems and that what | |||
0:18:21.870,0:18:27.090 | |||
we should be asking of them is to be | |||
0:18:24.559,0:18:30.570 | |||
improvements or to augment mm-hmm | |||
0:18:27.090,0:18:34.470 | |||
already existing systems now one of the | |||
0:18:30.570,0:18:37.380 | |||
odd things about governance is we could | |||
0:18:34.470,0:18:41.400 | |||
view you as in some sense starting a | |||
0:18:37.380,0:18:44.940 | |||
rival virtual country that has a legal | |||
0:18:41.400,0:18:46.919 | |||
system because the etherium I don't know | |||
0:18:44.940,0:18:48.390 | |||
what to call it Network platform | |||
0:18:46.919,0:18:50.610 | |||
protocol | |||
0:18:48.390,0:18:52.710 | |||
yeah rules coins and it has the right to | |||
0:18:50.610,0:18:55.409 | |||
reassign those coins and not only that | |||
0:18:52.710,0:18:56.580 | |||
but it has a stand-in for the legal | |||
0:18:55.409,0:19:03.059 | |||
system in the form of what are called | |||
0:18:56.580,0:19:06.090 | |||
smart contracts mmm-hmm normally a we | |||
0:19:03.059,0:19:08.400 | |||
have this concept in governance I guess | |||
0:19:06.090,0:19:10.559 | |||
it goes back to Weber that a government | |||
0:19:08.400,0:19:12.960 | |||
is supposed to be a monopoly on violence | |||
0:19:10.559,0:19:15.570 | |||
which is an odd definition that you | |||
0:19:12.960,0:19:18.330 | |||
recover the concept of government from | |||
0:19:15.570,0:19:21.059 | |||
monopolizing violence and then you you | |||
0:19:18.330,0:19:23.240 | |||
sort of unearth and and unpack all of | |||
0:19:21.059,0:19:25.980 | |||
the features of government from that one | |||
0:19:23.240,0:19:28.890 | |||
generating function in some sense a | |||
0:19:25.980,0:19:31.890 | |||
cryptocurrency and smart contracts | |||
0:19:28.890,0:19:35.220 | |||
derive from math rather than violence | |||
0:19:31.890,0:19:37.799 | |||
they derive from math and social | |||
0:19:35.220,0:19:39.630 | |||
consensus right I love the fact that I | |||
0:19:37.799,0:19:41.549 | |||
was gonna get to that but I know I guess | |||
0:19:39.630,0:19:43.440 | |||
this is important right because like for | |||
0:19:41.549,0:19:45.299 | |||
example you know you have the Bitcoin | |||
0:19:43.440,0:19:47.130 | |||
blockchain and then you have the | |||
0:19:45.299,0:19:49.500 | |||
litecoin blockchain which operates under | |||
0:19:47.130,0:19:51.090 | |||
ik almost exactly the set at the same | |||
0:19:49.500,0:19:53.730 | |||
set of rules as the Bitcoin blockchain | |||
0:19:51.090,0:19:55.500 | |||
and yet the Bitcoin blockchain has a | |||
0:19:53.730,0:19:56.760 | |||
hundred million dollar market cap and | |||
0:19:55.500,0:19:58.289 | |||
the white coin blockchain has a three | |||
0:19:56.760,0:20:00.510 | |||
billion dollar market cap or something | |||
0:19:58.289,0:20:04.110 | |||
like that and much less usage so | |||
0:20:00.510,0:20:06.750 | |||
like blog Chin's are definitely not just | |||
0:20:04.110,0:20:08.730 | |||
math and technology math and technology | |||
0:20:06.750,0:20:10.560 | |||
are the substrate and maybe in the same | |||
0:20:08.730,0:20:12.090 | |||
way that the military is like the | |||
0:20:10.560,0:20:15.600 | |||
substrate of keeping a country together | |||
0:20:12.090,0:20:18.600 | |||
but they're including police force yeah | |||
0:20:15.600,0:20:19.740 | |||
exactly but like they're the substrate | |||
0:20:18.600,0:20:22.230 | |||
but they're not the country right the | |||
0:20:19.740,0:20:25.020 | |||
country is the community well and this | |||
0:20:22.230,0:20:28.620 | |||
goes to what I would love to get into | |||
0:20:25.020,0:20:31.230 | |||
you with love to get into with you which | |||
0:20:28.620,0:20:34.260 | |||
is the way in which different utopian | |||
0:20:31.230,0:20:37.230 | |||
dreams collide in the space of | |||
0:20:34.260,0:20:40.110 | |||
cryptocurrencies so for example there | |||
0:20:37.230,0:20:42.810 | |||
are some dreams that may sound more like | |||
0:20:40.110,0:20:44.880 | |||
what I assume you may be active in the | |||
0:20:42.810,0:20:46.710 | |||
effective altruism community is that a | |||
0:20:44.880,0:20:48.300 | |||
possibility yeah | |||
0:20:46.710,0:20:51.720 | |||
which tries to figure how to do the most | |||
0:20:48.300,0:20:55.110 | |||
good to do good efficiently rather than | |||
0:20:51.720,0:20:57.750 | |||
sanctimoniously there are other people | |||
0:20:55.110,0:21:00.420 | |||
who have this idea of I just want to | |||
0:20:57.750,0:21:01.950 | |||
retreat from other human beings and I | |||
0:21:00.420,0:21:04.080 | |||
want to be left alone it want to be | |||
0:21:01.950,0:21:06.900 | |||
taxed I don't to be told what to do very | |||
0:21:04.080,0:21:08.550 | |||
strong libertarian perspective sometimes | |||
0:21:06.900,0:21:10.440 | |||
those people are the same people there's | |||
0:21:08.550,0:21:12.000 | |||
two kinds of libertarians there's well | |||
0:21:10.440,0:21:14.100 | |||
there's many ways that's what Albertans | |||
0:21:12.000,0:21:15.750 | |||
is the two kinds but like there's the | |||
0:21:14.100,0:21:17.640 | |||
leave me alone type and then there's the | |||
0:21:15.750,0:21:21.720 | |||
kind of conquer the world type right the | |||
0:21:17.640,0:21:24.330 | |||
kind that kind of relishes seeing fiat | |||
0:21:21.720,0:21:28.620 | |||
currencies be destroyed and replaced by | |||
0:21:24.330,0:21:32.070 | |||
Bitcoin and it's kind of you know | |||
0:21:28.620,0:21:35.790 | |||
creating a thousand a year kind of reign | |||
0:21:32.070,0:21:40.020 | |||
of sound money that in I mean I | |||
0:21:35.790,0:21:42.000 | |||
generally have this kind of instincts | |||
0:21:40.020,0:21:43.890 | |||
that like when someone says that like we | |||
0:21:42.000,0:21:45.630 | |||
should impose a lot of short-term | |||
0:21:43.890,0:21:47.160 | |||
disruption and harm on the entire world | |||
0:21:45.630,0:21:48.240 | |||
for the sake of some nebulous a long | |||
0:21:47.160,0:21:51.000 | |||
term gain that's something to be | |||
0:21:48.240,0:21:53.400 | |||
skeptical of but so I'm not gonna rely | |||
0:21:51.000,0:21:55.530 | |||
on the word skeptical mmm-hmm you're | |||
0:21:53.400,0:21:59.010 | |||
using an extreme form of understatement | |||
0:21:55.530,0:22:02.730 | |||
yeah yeah and so I mean I'm definitely | |||
0:21:59.010,0:22:04.910 | |||
not in in the camp that had of actively | |||
0:22:02.730,0:22:09.060 | |||
relishes like fiat currency is being | |||
0:22:04.910,0:22:11.250 | |||
destroyed but meanders and I definitely | |||
0:22:09.060,0:22:13.530 | |||
don't think that all bitcoiners do it | |||
0:22:11.250,0:22:17.010 | |||
like there is some that do see it as | |||
0:22:13.530,0:22:18.840 | |||
and of a something that's supposed to | |||
0:22:17.010,0:22:21.180 | |||
coexist and something that's supposed to | |||
0:22:18.840,0:22:22.680 | |||
provide a check and balance against the | |||
0:22:21.180,0:22:25.770 | |||
government's monopoly on issuing money | |||
0:22:22.680,0:22:27.240 | |||
without replacing it entirely so you | |||
0:22:25.770,0:22:28.680 | |||
know there are there's definitely enough | |||
0:22:27.240,0:22:31.200 | |||
different visions within individual | |||
0:22:28.680,0:22:34.230 | |||
communities there's different visions | |||
0:22:31.200,0:22:36.570 | |||
between different communities you know | |||
0:22:34.230,0:22:38.610 | |||
in it there's it's not just visions | |||
0:22:36.570,0:22:40.080 | |||
about what cryptocurrencies should do to | |||
0:22:38.610,0:22:42.600 | |||
the world it's also in your visions | |||
0:22:40.080,0:22:44.220 | |||
about like what how cryptocurrencies | |||
0:22:42.600,0:22:47.370 | |||
should work internally and what they | |||
0:22:44.220,0:22:50.060 | |||
should do to each other so like that in | |||
0:22:47.370,0:22:52.830 | |||
that sense I guess like a | |||
0:22:50.060,0:22:54.780 | |||
cryptocurrencies are interesting in in | |||
0:22:52.830,0:22:56.250 | |||
ball chains not just because of like | |||
0:22:54.780,0:22:58.830 | |||
what they can do in the world but also | |||
0:22:56.250,0:23:01.470 | |||
just as this and if microcosm of the | |||
0:22:58.830,0:23:03.630 | |||
world all into themselves I mean like we | |||
0:23:01.470,0:23:06.060 | |||
talked about country virtual countries | |||
0:23:03.630,0:23:07.440 | |||
but you know there there's many virtual | |||
0:23:06.060,0:23:09.240 | |||
countries now there's over fourteen | |||
0:23:07.440,0:23:12.930 | |||
hundred on coin market cap and they have | |||
0:23:09.240,0:23:16.050 | |||
some analog of you do think of them as | |||
0:23:12.930,0:23:18.950 | |||
virtual countries it's singing all | |||
0:23:16.050,0:23:21.210 | |||
models are bullshit but some are useful | |||
0:23:18.950,0:23:28.110 | |||
but to the extent of the country is a | |||
0:23:21.210,0:23:32.240 | |||
sensible thing to yes yeah yeah yeah so | |||
0:23:28.110,0:23:38.700 | |||
in that world where we're dealing with | |||
0:23:32.240,0:23:41.490 | |||
often very radical individualism and a | |||
0:23:38.700,0:23:44.880 | |||
very strong sense that there is | |||
0:23:41.490,0:23:48.060 | |||
something wrong with the coercive aspect | |||
0:23:44.880,0:23:51.350 | |||
of a government do you worry that | |||
0:23:48.060,0:23:57.290 | |||
something that you have given birth to | |||
0:23:51.350,0:24:02.240 | |||
may start to behave in very different | |||
0:23:57.290,0:24:06.270 | |||
ways than you would ever want definitely | |||
0:24:02.240,0:24:07.860 | |||
probably the closest that we've seen to | |||
0:24:06.270,0:24:10.410 | |||
things like this happening already would | |||
0:24:07.860,0:24:14.460 | |||
be the the initial coin offering a boom | |||
0:24:10.410,0:24:16.950 | |||
in the 2017 and 2018 and like basically | |||
0:24:14.460,0:24:19.020 | |||
if what happens and there was that | |||
0:24:16.950,0:24:21.870 | |||
people saw that cryptocurrencies are | |||
0:24:19.020,0:24:23.580 | |||
something that could potentially had a | |||
0:24:21.870,0:24:27.450 | |||
very high value and so people started | |||
0:24:23.580,0:24:29.460 | |||
saying oh like I'm raising money | |||
0:24:27.450,0:24:31.200 | |||
anyone come and give me fifty million | |||
0:24:29.460,0:24:32.669 | |||
dollars and I'm gonna build a | |||
0:24:31.200,0:24:34.200 | |||
cryptocurrency and I'm gonna make it | |||
0:24:32.669,0:24:36.600 | |||
great and I'll turn your 50 million | |||
0:24:34.200,0:24:43.440 | |||
dollars into 50 billion going guaranteed | |||
0:24:36.600,0:24:45.149 | |||
and this like and like it's complicated | |||
0:24:43.440,0:24:47.370 | |||
right because I mean on the one hand | |||
0:24:45.149,0:24:48.929 | |||
like the possibility of a kind of | |||
0:24:47.370,0:24:52.679 | |||
raising money and using it to fund | |||
0:24:48.929,0:24:54.899 | |||
cryptocurrency development like it's it | |||
0:24:52.679,0:24:56.610 | |||
did a lot of good right began like in | |||
0:24:54.899,0:24:59.760 | |||
general like the open source community | |||
0:24:56.610,0:25:01.889 | |||
it's and it kind of acutely suffers from | |||
0:24:59.760,0:25:03.659 | |||
this have public goods challenge that we | |||
0:25:01.889,0:25:06.600 | |||
talked about because an open source | |||
0:25:03.659,0:25:09.299 | |||
software is a very public good and like | |||
0:25:06.600,0:25:10.860 | |||
we saw some very public and if splats | |||
0:25:09.299,0:25:13.529 | |||
involving open source software being | |||
0:25:10.860,0:25:15.029 | |||
under maintains like the CloudFlare and | |||
0:25:13.529,0:25:17.610 | |||
of issues a couple years back when it | |||
0:25:15.029,0:25:19.320 | |||
turned out that's an open ssl library it | |||
0:25:17.610,0:25:20.909 | |||
was like really really under maintained | |||
0:25:19.320,0:25:23.130 | |||
despite billions of dollars of value | |||
0:25:20.909,0:25:24.899 | |||
depending on it and with | |||
0:25:23.130,0:25:26.100 | |||
cryptocurrencies suddenly you could make | |||
0:25:24.899,0:25:28.799 | |||
things that are completely open-source | |||
0:25:26.100,0:25:31.970 | |||
that through coins do have a funding | |||
0:25:28.799,0:25:34.919 | |||
mechanism and like you know this has | |||
0:25:31.970,0:25:36.179 | |||
massive massively accelerated the | |||
0:25:34.919,0:25:38.250 | |||
development of many kinds of | |||
0:25:36.179,0:25:40.740 | |||
cryptography zero-knowledge proofs and | |||
0:25:38.250,0:25:42.750 | |||
peer-to-peer networking a lot of other | |||
0:25:40.740,0:25:45.539 | |||
things but at this on the other hand | |||
0:25:42.750,0:25:49.200 | |||
like it's also given rise to this kind | |||
0:25:45.539,0:25:50.340 | |||
of speculation and in many cases the | |||
0:25:49.200,0:25:53.490 | |||
projects turned out to be outright | |||
0:25:50.340,0:25:55.470 | |||
fraudulent right but it's a really | |||
0:25:53.490,0:25:57.419 | |||
delicious and weird situation I haven't | |||
0:25:55.470,0:26:00.779 | |||
asked you about it yet but you're I | |||
0:25:57.419,0:26:03.590 | |||
presume that your net worth crashed a | |||
0:26:00.779,0:26:05.820 | |||
great deal we got run up and then came | |||
0:26:03.590,0:26:10.039 | |||
came back yeah | |||
0:26:05.820,0:26:17.429 | |||
and were you happy in any way about that | |||
0:26:10.039,0:26:19.289 | |||
relieved relieved yeah so when the right | |||
0:26:17.429,0:26:24.299 | |||
at the top of the big bubble like in | |||
0:26:19.289,0:26:27.539 | |||
December 2017 when yeah good coin was | |||
0:26:24.299,0:26:30.299 | |||
hitting 20,000 eath was hitting 1,400 I | |||
0:26:27.539,0:26:32.880 | |||
mean I made this tweet and a series of | |||
0:26:30.299,0:26:34.080 | |||
tweets and that and it became somewhat | |||
0:26:32.880,0:26:36.419 | |||
famous one in the space where I | |||
0:26:34.080,0:26:38.309 | |||
basically said the cryptocurrency space | |||
0:26:36.419,0:26:41.040 | |||
has reached half a trillion dollars does | |||
0:26:38.309,0:26:43.200 | |||
does it deserve it like do the thing | |||
0:26:41.040,0:26:46.080 | |||
that it's actually accomplished like | |||
0:26:43.200,0:26:49.020 | |||
hold a candle to the promises that my | |||
0:26:46.080,0:26:51.450 | |||
market is ascribing to it and I mean the | |||
0:26:49.020,0:26:54.630 | |||
subtext of my answer is not yet and that | |||
0:26:51.450,0:26:58.620 | |||
was proven very right yeah I fairly | |||
0:26:54.630,0:27:04.640 | |||
quickly and but you didn't short it did | |||
0:26:58.620,0:27:07.410 | |||
you so the iana I did can you get and | |||
0:27:04.640,0:27:09.780 | |||
get the etherium foundation to sell | |||
0:27:07.410,0:27:11.520 | |||
about seventy thousand eath like | |||
0:27:09.780,0:27:14.400 | |||
basically at the top and that's doubled | |||
0:27:11.520,0:27:16.860 | |||
our runway now so there was one good | |||
0:27:14.400,0:27:19.380 | |||
decision that had a land that had a lot | |||
0:27:16.860,0:27:25.200 | |||
of impact but it did not short I should | |||
0:27:19.380,0:27:29.540 | |||
say that I was weirdly somewhat relieved | |||
0:27:25.200,0:27:34.260 | |||
as well I view that the innovation of | |||
0:27:29.540,0:27:37.290 | |||
decentralized transactions and the bid | |||
0:27:34.260,0:27:39.570 | |||
and you know it's hard for me to say | |||
0:27:37.290,0:27:41.490 | |||
because I actually I'm convinced that | |||
0:27:39.570,0:27:43.230 | |||
the blockchain should be an intermediate | |||
0:27:41.490,0:27:46.500 | |||
state and should not be the permanent | |||
0:27:43.230,0:27:50.190 | |||
version of decentralized computing angry | |||
0:27:46.500,0:27:52.760 | |||
okay but I thought that that was such an | |||
0:27:50.190,0:27:57.900 | |||
amazing innovation that you could have a | |||
0:27:52.760,0:28:00.390 | |||
locally enforced mechanism without a | |||
0:27:57.900,0:28:03.060 | |||
centralized Authority but with a global | |||
0:28:00.390,0:28:08.610 | |||
ledger unfair which which I see if it is | |||
0:28:03.060,0:28:10.710 | |||
a point of intellectual failure that in | |||
0:28:08.610,0:28:12.990 | |||
some sense you're mirroring the | |||
0:28:10.710,0:28:17.370 | |||
transactions of the physical world so | |||
0:28:12.990,0:28:20.880 | |||
for example for those listening at home | |||
0:28:17.370,0:28:23.430 | |||
who don't have a visual here Vitalik has | |||
0:28:20.880,0:28:25.650 | |||
several glass bottles next to him were | |||
0:28:23.430,0:28:29.760 | |||
he to give one to me which he shouldn't | |||
0:28:25.650,0:28:31.980 | |||
do right now but the idea would be that | |||
0:28:29.760,0:28:35.220 | |||
it would no longer be in his space and | |||
0:28:31.980,0:28:40.640 | |||
it would be in mine and that property of | |||
0:28:35.220,0:28:43.410 | |||
Adams has been somewhat mirrored in | |||
0:28:40.640,0:28:46.770 | |||
Bitcoin and blockchain and aetherium | |||
0:28:43.410,0:28:49.200 | |||
transactions I mean this is like the | |||
0:28:46.770,0:28:51.600 | |||
concept of like money as a thing right | |||
0:28:49.200,0:28:53.910 | |||
the and if the scarcity of the 21 | |||
0:28:51.600,0:28:54.870 | |||
million limit if I give you five coins I | |||
0:28:53.910,0:28:57.240 | |||
have five of us and you | |||
0:28:54.870,0:28:58.710 | |||
five more right and so the idea is that | |||
0:28:57.240,0:29:02.370 | |||
it's a what you're doing is you're | |||
0:28:58.710,0:29:04.680 | |||
porting conservation laws into from the | |||
0:29:02.370,0:29:09.450 | |||
physical layer into the logical layer | |||
0:29:04.680,0:29:11.790 | |||
right and yeah and I guess and if to | |||
0:29:09.450,0:29:13.710 | |||
some extent kind of reflects the kind of | |||
0:29:11.790,0:29:16.920 | |||
very deeply enough Austrian economic | |||
0:29:13.710,0:29:19.700 | |||
libertarian and origins of the the space | |||
0:29:16.920,0:29:24.510 | |||
way better back in the end of 2009 to | |||
0:29:19.700,0:29:27.690 | |||
2013 days I mean creating like digital | |||
0:29:24.510,0:29:29.250 | |||
gold was pretty much the Fukien Digital | |||
0:29:27.690,0:29:32.580 | |||
payment system was the first use case | |||
0:29:29.250,0:29:34.559 | |||
but and I definitely think that like we | |||
0:29:32.580,0:29:36.120 | |||
can and should be thinking about point | |||
0:29:34.559,0:29:38.460 | |||
systems that work in ways other than | |||
0:29:36.120,0:29:41.030 | |||
money well I agree with that and I also | |||
0:29:38.460,0:29:44.040 | |||
think that it isn't digital gold because | |||
0:29:41.030,0:29:46.620 | |||
as the saying goes you know gold or | |||
0:29:44.040,0:29:49.260 | |||
money has no stench and that the | |||
0:29:46.620,0:29:51.480 | |||
blockchain is this bizarre difference | |||
0:29:49.260,0:29:55.230 | |||
with the physical world and that it is a | |||
0:29:51.480,0:29:58.320 | |||
distributed ledger that may be somewhat | |||
0:29:55.230,0:30:01.260 | |||
anonymous but it still gives the history | |||
0:29:58.320,0:30:05.750 | |||
like if I hand you a dollar and and you | |||
0:30:01.260,0:30:09.090 | |||
don't have access to any particular | |||
0:30:05.750,0:30:11.160 | |||
means of analyzing whose DNA is on that | |||
0:30:09.090,0:30:14.790 | |||
dollar you have no idea where it's been | |||
0:30:11.160,0:30:17.040 | |||
and these that is not that is violated | |||
0:30:14.790,0:30:20.070 | |||
by the current block chain type | |||
0:30:17.040,0:30:22.350 | |||
implementations yes so it isn't a | |||
0:30:20.070,0:30:25.770 | |||
complete port of the physical world into | |||
0:30:22.350,0:30:27.690 | |||
a digital but it is a an astounding one | |||
0:30:25.770,0:30:30.240 | |||
and I guess I get very frustrated with | |||
0:30:27.690,0:30:32.220 | |||
the economics questions like well what's | |||
0:30:30.240,0:30:34.340 | |||
good what's it good for where's the | |||
0:30:32.220,0:30:37.350 | |||
killer app I mean we have all of | |||
0:30:34.340,0:30:40.740 | |||
whatever's left of human civilization to | |||
0:30:37.350,0:30:42.929 | |||
figure out what this thing is meant to | |||
0:30:40.740,0:30:44.490 | |||
do you know and I'm not very worried | |||
0:30:42.929,0:30:46.530 | |||
that we were not going to figure it out | |||
0:30:44.490,0:30:48.360 | |||
I mean we're going to figure it out | |||
0:30:46.530,0:30:49.860 | |||
sooner or later because a conservation | |||
0:30:48.360,0:30:53.429 | |||
law and digital space is just too | |||
0:30:49.860,0:30:56.100 | |||
valuable is that wrong are you worried | |||
0:30:53.429,0:30:58.170 | |||
at all about the search for like I I | |||
0:30:56.100,0:30:59.640 | |||
just hate this question you know where's | |||
0:30:58.170,0:31:02.760 | |||
that where's the killer app and I'm | |||
0:30:59.640,0:31:05.400 | |||
thinking chill out man this is an | |||
0:31:02.760,0:31:08.130 | |||
astounding intellectual achievement what | |||
0:31:05.400,0:31:11.700 | |||
is that wrong yeah and I say | |||
0:31:08.130,0:31:14.669 | |||
there's definitely a and a long time to | |||
0:31:11.700,0:31:16.530 | |||
go and they think you know the apps will | |||
0:31:14.669,0:31:18.500 | |||
come you know there's the ones that are | |||
0:31:16.530,0:31:21.630 | |||
coming right now are basically a kind of | |||
0:31:18.500,0:31:24.900 | |||
financial but I think I mean that's kind | |||
0:31:21.630,0:31:26.760 | |||
of true just in part because the finance | |||
0:31:24.900,0:31:28.950 | |||
the existing financial system is just | |||
0:31:26.760,0:31:31.830 | |||
like so ready and waiting there to be | |||
0:31:28.950,0:31:34.860 | |||
disrupted event in like in the long term | |||
0:31:31.830,0:31:42.030 | |||
like there's there's it's disrupted and | |||
0:31:34.860,0:31:43.470 | |||
polite term for destroyed you choose but | |||
0:31:42.030,0:31:46.470 | |||
I mean there's something interesting | |||
0:31:43.470,0:31:53.210 | |||
here you're 25 years old every bit of | |||
0:31:46.470,0:31:58.289 | |||
your adult life is post 2008 mm-hmm and | |||
0:31:53.210,0:32:01.559 | |||
to be 25 years old and in charge of a | |||
0:31:58.289,0:32:03.270 | |||
financial ecosystem to the extent that | |||
0:32:01.559,0:32:05.400 | |||
anyone is in charge of etherium and I | |||
0:32:03.270,0:32:07.350 | |||
don't want to claim that you are sitting | |||
0:32:05.400,0:32:11.820 | |||
there running and making all these | |||
0:32:07.350,0:32:14.850 | |||
decisions that's an astounding thing | |||
0:32:11.820,0:32:19.429 | |||
that that this has fallen to somebody | |||
0:32:14.850,0:32:23.250 | |||
who whose adult life has post the crash | |||
0:32:19.429,0:32:25.230 | |||
hmm do you think about that at all that | |||
0:32:23.250,0:32:28.020 | |||
you don't have the same associations the | |||
0:32:25.230,0:32:30.690 | |||
rest of us do with markets when they | |||
0:32:28.020,0:32:32.340 | |||
were claimed to be working well like | |||
0:32:30.690,0:32:34.380 | |||
during the during the era of the Great | |||
0:32:32.340,0:32:39.840 | |||
Moderation supposedly when volatility | |||
0:32:34.380,0:32:42.210 | |||
was banished yeah 17:12 right so one | |||
0:32:39.840,0:32:44.010 | |||
thing that I kind of when we realized | |||
0:32:42.210,0:32:46.289 | |||
the recently that I found interesting is | |||
0:32:44.010,0:32:48.030 | |||
that there like there aren't kind of two | |||
0:32:46.289,0:32:51.470 | |||
tribes here there's to be tribes right | |||
0:32:48.030,0:32:56.340 | |||
and what I mean by this is that there's | |||
0:32:51.470,0:32:59.039 | |||
the tribe that says markets are great | |||
0:32:56.340,0:33:01.169 | |||
and there's the tribe that says markets | |||
0:32:59.039,0:33:02.280 | |||
are bad and like we should move to more | |||
0:33:01.169,0:33:05.429 | |||
things don't look like political | |||
0:33:02.280,0:33:08.100 | |||
mechanisms but then if you look at kind | |||
0:33:05.429,0:33:10.190 | |||
of the zeitgeist that's kind of fairly | |||
0:33:08.100,0:33:12.210 | |||
popular in the cryptocurrencies space | |||
0:33:10.190,0:33:16.070 | |||
definitely even still now to a big | |||
0:33:12.210,0:33:19.559 | |||
extent it's that markets are great but | |||
0:33:16.070,0:33:22.020 | |||
the thing that existed and exists like | |||
0:33:19.559,0:33:26.010 | |||
isn't markets and | |||
0:33:22.020,0:33:28.260 | |||
so yes like there's people who are pro | |||
0:33:26.010,0:33:29.910 | |||
market and who see ahead of the existing | |||
0:33:28.260,0:33:31.560 | |||
financial system as being that and | |||
0:33:29.910,0:33:33.420 | |||
there's people who are pro market at | |||
0:33:31.560,0:33:35.640 | |||
receive the existing financial system as | |||
0:33:33.420,0:33:36.930 | |||
being like yet another one of the | |||
0:33:35.640,0:33:39.660 | |||
perversions of that that needs to be | |||
0:33:36.930,0:33:43.260 | |||
overcome well it's odd because I would | |||
0:33:39.660,0:33:47.010 | |||
love to fix our democracy I'd love to | |||
0:33:43.260,0:33:49.410 | |||
fix our markets but I am I have to say I | |||
0:33:47.010,0:33:54.150 | |||
believe that I have grown up in a an | |||
0:33:49.410,0:33:56.100 | |||
approximately 50 year bubble which the | |||
0:33:54.150,0:34:00.770 | |||
Silent Generation and then the boomers | |||
0:33:56.100,0:34:03.900 | |||
presided over and my own read is that | |||
0:34:00.770,0:34:06.780 | |||
because of their inability to figure out | |||
0:34:03.900,0:34:09.300 | |||
sufficient innovation to take over from | |||
0:34:06.780,0:34:12.840 | |||
the previously innovative system that | |||
0:34:09.300,0:34:15.360 | |||
the world of human expertise has been | |||
0:34:12.840,0:34:17.790 | |||
almost completely contaminated by | |||
0:34:15.360,0:34:21.270 | |||
special pleading and political economy | |||
0:34:17.790,0:34:23.780 | |||
so that many of us who don't have a | |||
0:34:21.270,0:34:28.620 | |||
particularly Austrian or libertarian | |||
0:34:23.780,0:34:32.159 | |||
bent are just sick to death of being | |||
0:34:28.620,0:34:34.010 | |||
lied to by people claim to be Nobel | |||
0:34:32.159,0:34:37.679 | |||
laureates in economics yep | |||
0:34:34.010,0:34:39.840 | |||
do you have any emotional connection to | |||
0:34:37.679,0:34:42.860 | |||
you hmm | |||
0:34:39.840,0:34:45.960 | |||
like I feel like I'm lied to about | |||
0:34:42.860,0:34:47.370 | |||
almost almost you know the doctors are | |||
0:34:45.960,0:34:48.390 | |||
lying the lawyers are lying the | |||
0:34:47.370,0:34:52.010 | |||
accountants are lying | |||
0:34:48.390,0:34:55.230 | |||
the extraction companies are lying and | |||
0:34:52.010,0:34:57.510 | |||
it's not because of a million different | |||
0:34:55.230,0:34:59.700 | |||
reasons it's because growth ran out and | |||
0:34:57.510,0:35:03.000 | |||
our whole society is predicated on a | |||
0:34:59.700,0:35:06.030 | |||
need for economic growth yeah no there's | |||
0:35:03.000,0:35:07.710 | |||
definitely and of things that are that | |||
0:35:06.030,0:35:10.320 | |||
have changed in us and assess them | |||
0:35:07.710,0:35:11.490 | |||
that's just not keeping up and doesn't | |||
0:35:10.320,0:35:16.130 | |||
and doesn't understand that there is | |||
0:35:11.490,0:35:17.700 | |||
such a thing as keeping up and it's like | |||
0:35:16.130,0:35:22.740 | |||
hmm | |||
0:35:17.700,0:35:24.240 | |||
so like one thing that even Gwen talks | |||
0:35:22.740,0:35:27.630 | |||
about this right what he talks about | |||
0:35:24.240,0:35:31.400 | |||
kind of the mortgage markets has social | |||
0:35:27.630,0:35:35.230 | |||
technology mentality versus the like | |||
0:35:31.400,0:35:39.550 | |||
basically end of history mentality and I | |||
0:35:35.230,0:35:42.730 | |||
like the way that I can and I definitely | |||
0:35:39.550,0:35:44.680 | |||
saw this kind of zeitgeist 10 years ago | |||
0:35:42.730,0:35:46.300 | |||
that said kind of even more broadly than | |||
0:35:44.680,0:35:49.900 | |||
like markets versus other mechanisms | |||
0:35:46.300,0:35:51.700 | |||
that's like things are 80% efficient and | |||
0:35:49.900,0:35:52.240 | |||
lots of work to make them 95 percent | |||
0:35:51.700,0:35:57.190 | |||
efficient | |||
0:35:52.240,0:35:58.869 | |||
whereas the the thing that's really | |||
0:35:57.190,0:35:59.980 | |||
going on is that things are 3 percent | |||
0:35:58.869,0:36:02.080 | |||
efficient and we should work hard on | |||
0:35:59.980,0:36:05.170 | |||
making them six percent efficient like | |||
0:36:02.080,0:36:07.720 | |||
if you kind of move away from the narrow | |||
0:36:05.170,0:36:08.859 | |||
context of like I'm I have something to | |||
0:36:07.720,0:36:10.540 | |||
sell when you have something to buy | |||
0:36:08.859,0:36:14.260 | |||
which is pretty well optimized already | |||
0:36:10.540,0:36:15.820 | |||
then there's lots of these and very big | |||
0:36:14.260,0:36:18.970 | |||
things that are happening that have just | |||
0:36:15.820,0:36:23.320 | |||
completely been missed and in technology | |||
0:36:18.970,0:36:25.180 | |||
and if Network effects and all and just | |||
0:36:23.320,0:36:26.800 | |||
generally kind of migrating from atoms | |||
0:36:25.180,0:36:31.180 | |||
to bits are definitely all a big part of | |||
0:36:26.800,0:36:32.830 | |||
it so let's talk about something's a | |||
0:36:31.180,0:36:35.800 | |||
little bit funny which is if you start | |||
0:36:32.830,0:36:37.330 | |||
to replace government as we were talking | |||
0:36:35.800,0:36:40.119 | |||
about it and you see it as a monopoly on | |||
0:36:37.330,0:36:43.930 | |||
violence you notice that very often | |||
0:36:40.119,0:36:46.480 | |||
there there's a very funny role played | |||
0:36:43.930,0:36:48.340 | |||
by organized crime of course when we | |||
0:36:46.480,0:36:50.770 | |||
think about organized crime we tend to | |||
0:36:48.340,0:36:52.900 | |||
get emotionally excited by it for | |||
0:36:50.770,0:36:56.080 | |||
whatever reason we make lots of movies | |||
0:36:52.900,0:36:58.590 | |||
about it it occupies the mind is | |||
0:36:56.080,0:37:01.480 | |||
something terrifying and alluring and | |||
0:36:58.590,0:37:05.800 | |||
there's sort of two weird aspects to | |||
0:37:01.480,0:37:09.550 | |||
organized crime one of which is violence | |||
0:37:05.800,0:37:11.950 | |||
as a contract enforcement mechanism in | |||
0:37:09.550,0:37:14.890 | |||
other words you're you're gambling so | |||
0:37:11.950,0:37:16.420 | |||
you don't have access to the regular | |||
0:37:14.890,0:37:20.290 | |||
court system now you have a gambling | |||
0:37:16.420,0:37:26.320 | |||
debt and so just the way our government | |||
0:37:20.290,0:37:28.330 | |||
would put you in jail if you you know | |||
0:37:26.320,0:37:30.130 | |||
started doing things you couldn't | |||
0:37:28.330,0:37:31.570 | |||
fulfill all of your obligations and you | |||
0:37:30.130,0:37:34.990 | |||
were doing harm to lots of people and | |||
0:37:31.570,0:37:37.540 | |||
you couldn't be stopped organized crime | |||
0:37:34.990,0:37:40.270 | |||
has to do somebody can't maintain jails | |||
0:37:37.540,0:37:42.700 | |||
you know so it can put the hurt on | |||
0:37:40.270,0:37:45.220 | |||
somebody for means of contract | |||
0:37:42.700,0:37:46.930 | |||
enforcement so it's it's not looking to | |||
0:37:45.220,0:37:48.260 | |||
do violent things it's looking to run | |||
0:37:46.930,0:37:49.910 | |||
illegal businesses | |||
0:37:48.260,0:37:52.100 | |||
for which there's demand yeah and then | |||
0:37:49.910,0:37:53.560 | |||
it has a problem of enforcement then | |||
0:37:52.100,0:37:57.370 | |||
there's another part of it which is | |||
0:37:53.560,0:37:59.930 | |||
violence as the product so for example | |||
0:37:57.370,0:38:01.850 | |||
extortion be shame if anything were to | |||
0:37:59.930,0:38:04.820 | |||
happen to this lovely business that | |||
0:38:01.850,0:38:06.920 | |||
you're running is a veiled threat pay us | |||
0:38:04.820,0:38:09.980 | |||
or we're gonna do harm to your business | |||
0:38:06.920,0:38:12.340 | |||
or you know contract killings and the | |||
0:38:09.980,0:38:15.110 | |||
like yeah are you worried that | |||
0:38:12.340,0:38:18.140 | |||
effectively by introducing parallel | |||
0:38:15.110,0:38:22.010 | |||
structures both in the form of currency | |||
0:38:18.140,0:38:24.320 | |||
and in the form of contracts smart | |||
0:38:22.010,0:38:27.590 | |||
contracts that are the cynic wanna and I | |||
0:38:24.320,0:38:30.590 | |||
guess of the difference between Bitcoin | |||
0:38:27.590,0:38:33.410 | |||
and aetherium right that the killer app | |||
0:38:30.590,0:38:35.090 | |||
that is most likely to happen while the | |||
0:38:33.410,0:38:37.880 | |||
technology is still clunky and | |||
0:38:35.090,0:38:42.920 | |||
cumbersome and difficult is in the | |||
0:38:37.880,0:38:46.340 | |||
parallel space that either you are going | |||
0:38:42.920,0:38:49.430 | |||
to replace organized crime as a place to | |||
0:38:46.340,0:38:52.130 | |||
do contractual business outside of the | |||
0:38:49.430,0:38:54.890 | |||
normal scope which could be a benefit | |||
0:38:52.130,0:38:56.870 | |||
because organized crime still exists and | |||
0:38:54.890,0:38:58.880 | |||
is a bad thing because it uses violence | |||
0:38:56.870,0:39:01.850 | |||
and you would use math and in place of | |||
0:38:58.880,0:39:07.360 | |||
it or that it could actually be used to | |||
0:39:01.850,0:39:09.530 | |||
facilitate violence by you know using | |||
0:39:07.360,0:39:12.290 | |||
let's say prediction markets or | |||
0:39:09.530,0:39:16.970 | |||
something else to induce people to | |||
0:39:12.290,0:39:20.120 | |||
commit crimes where the committer the | |||
0:39:16.970,0:39:21.800 | |||
committer of violence has unusual | |||
0:39:20.120,0:39:23.120 | |||
information about where the violence | |||
0:39:21.800,0:39:27.830 | |||
will be committed and therefore can | |||
0:39:23.120,0:39:30.290 | |||
profit from it it's definitely a worry | |||
0:39:27.830,0:39:31.670 | |||
that have I in make lots of people in | |||
0:39:30.290,0:39:33.920 | |||
the crypt of space have had since the | |||
0:39:31.670,0:39:36.530 | |||
beginning though I do feel like at least | |||
0:39:33.920,0:39:38.090 | |||
so far I've been surprised like it feels | |||
0:39:36.530,0:39:41.960 | |||
like a less avetis happens than we had | |||
0:39:38.090,0:39:44.330 | |||
expected the thing now what do you what | |||
0:39:41.960,0:39:47.750 | |||
accounts for the idea that something | |||
0:39:44.330,0:39:51.250 | |||
that can be dreamt has mostly not | |||
0:39:47.750,0:39:53.810 | |||
occurred yes I definitely have yeah | |||
0:39:51.250,0:39:54.860 | |||
maybe it's a great thing about humans | |||
0:39:53.810,0:39:56.330 | |||
that we didn't realize that we're not | |||
0:39:54.860,0:39:57.800 | |||
nearly the horrible people we thought | |||
0:39:56.330,0:39:59.750 | |||
and I definitely have a couple of | |||
0:39:57.800,0:40:01.640 | |||
theories about this so one of those | |||
0:39:59.750,0:40:07.519 | |||
theories is | |||
0:40:01.640,0:40:10.849 | |||
like basically a lot of things that | |||
0:40:07.519,0:40:12.769 | |||
people do and especially a lot of things | |||
0:40:10.849,0:40:14.390 | |||
that people do in the InfoSphere because | |||
0:40:12.769,0:40:15.710 | |||
like public goods are gonna have | |||
0:40:14.390,0:40:18.730 | |||
chronically underfunded and all that | |||
0:40:15.710,0:40:22.180 | |||
rely really heavily on goodwill and so | |||
0:40:18.730,0:40:25.160 | |||
you know you have goodwill that if | |||
0:40:22.180,0:40:27.289 | |||
someone if you pay someone to write some | |||
0:40:25.160,0:40:29.809 | |||
piece piece of software for your website | |||
0:40:27.289,0:40:31.880 | |||
it's not gonna include some bloggers go | |||
0:40:29.809,0:40:33.829 | |||
yeah some bug that'll steal people's | |||
0:40:31.880,0:40:37.730 | |||
money or tell the FBI where you are that | |||
0:40:33.829,0:40:39.079 | |||
you if you create a system for the | |||
0:40:37.730,0:40:42.470 | |||
enforcing agreements that they'll | |||
0:40:39.079,0:40:45.710 | |||
actually get enforced then even like on | |||
0:40:42.470,0:40:47.989 | |||
internet forums they depend on kind of a | |||
0:40:45.710,0:40:51.259 | |||
lot of volunteer labor for just things | |||
0:40:47.989,0:40:54.980 | |||
like moderation and if you create a | |||
0:40:51.259,0:40:56.809 | |||
group that just goes like fundamentally | |||
0:40:54.980,0:40:58.460 | |||
against like the vast majority of | |||
0:40:56.809,0:41:00.440 | |||
people's values then it's just gonna be | |||
0:40:58.460,0:41:06.680 | |||
hard to find volunteer effort for that | |||
0:41:00.440,0:41:08.539 | |||
sort of thing and like this so that's | |||
0:41:06.680,0:41:11.180 | |||
probably the big in the big reason I | |||
0:41:08.539,0:41:13.700 | |||
think why ik so far we don't really see | |||
0:41:11.180,0:41:16.309 | |||
a kind of you know complicated like | |||
0:41:13.700,0:41:20.059 | |||
decentralized structure is being created | |||
0:41:16.309,0:41:21.650 | |||
to facilitate like black black markets | |||
0:41:20.059,0:41:22.819 | |||
for killing people and so forth because | |||
0:41:21.650,0:41:26.029 | |||
let's start off with something more | |||
0:41:22.819,0:41:28.130 | |||
mundane like a numbers racket right so a | |||
0:41:26.029,0:41:31.099 | |||
numbers racket would probably be a much | |||
0:41:28.130,0:41:32.960 | |||
simpler application so what do you mean | |||
0:41:31.099,0:41:34.400 | |||
by numbers racket here well it's | |||
0:41:32.960,0:41:36.650 | |||
something that takes the place of a | |||
0:41:34.400,0:41:39.619 | |||
lottery where some let's say some | |||
0:41:36.650,0:41:41.749 | |||
naturally occurring number that would be | |||
0:41:39.619,0:41:44.329 | |||
printed in a newspaper and presumably | |||
0:41:41.749,0:41:47.089 | |||
nobody has the influence over what | |||
0:41:44.329,0:41:49.670 | |||
number gets printed right constitutes | |||
0:41:47.089,0:41:51.920 | |||
the lotto draw lotteries have existed on | |||
0:41:49.670,0:41:55.400 | |||
watching since the beginning yeah okay | |||
0:41:51.920,0:41:57.319 | |||
even there's definitely been this kind | |||
0:41:55.400,0:41:59.569 | |||
of sub community of people that created | |||
0:41:57.319,0:42:01.099 | |||
these kind of provably faire Ponzi | |||
0:41:59.569,0:42:03.019 | |||
contracts where and we have a smart | |||
0:42:01.099,0:42:05.180 | |||
contracts and you can throw money in and | |||
0:42:03.019,0:42:07.339 | |||
as soon as if you're the nth person to | |||
0:42:05.180,0:42:10.069 | |||
throw money n su as soon as two n people | |||
0:42:07.339,0:42:11.779 | |||
throw money and you get like 1.92 back | |||
0:42:10.069,0:42:15.739 | |||
or something like that and like this was | |||
0:42:11.779,0:42:18.200 | |||
just a fun game that people have made | |||
0:42:15.739,0:42:19.910 | |||
and like participated in even fully | |||
0:42:18.200,0:42:23.569 | |||
knowing what the economics of the thing | |||
0:42:19.910,0:42:28.690 | |||
are so yeah in thing things like that | |||
0:42:23.569,0:42:32.089 | |||
have definitely happened so I don't like | |||
0:42:28.690,0:42:34.700 | |||
though in gambling is the sort of thing | |||
0:42:32.089,0:42:36.739 | |||
that like there isn't like there isn't | |||
0:42:34.700,0:42:38.539 | |||
this kind of nine ninety nine percent | |||
0:42:36.739,0:42:41.150 | |||
plus consensus that it's really horrible | |||
0:42:38.539,0:42:42.589 | |||
and evil right because like on the one | |||
0:42:41.150,0:42:44.059 | |||
hand like lots of people want to be on | |||
0:42:42.589,0:42:49.089 | |||
it but on the other hand people do it | |||
0:42:44.059,0:42:51.829 | |||
and it's something that I think people | |||
0:42:49.089,0:42:53.660 | |||
see negative consequences of but at the | |||
0:42:51.829,0:42:55.249 | |||
same time it's something it is something | |||
0:42:53.660,0:42:59.299 | |||
that people participate in and enjoy | |||
0:42:55.249,0:43:01.549 | |||
whereas the I mean if extremely bad | |||
0:42:59.299,0:43:04.160 | |||
stuff like that's there's definitely | |||
0:43:01.549,0:43:06.559 | |||
this kind of this kind of barrier | |||
0:43:04.160,0:43:08.239 | |||
between kind of things that are edgy | |||
0:43:06.559,0:43:11.359 | |||
versus things that are just so far over | |||
0:43:08.239,0:43:15.799 | |||
the edge and for things that are and if | |||
0:43:11.359,0:43:17.869 | |||
so so far over the edge like it is yeah | |||
0:43:15.799,0:43:19.220 | |||
even with smart contracts and even with | |||
0:43:17.869,0:43:21.410 | |||
all of those things it's still hard to | |||
0:43:19.220,0:43:25.160 | |||
coordinate those structures and I think | |||
0:43:21.410,0:43:28.430 | |||
like the blockchain like the blockchains | |||
0:43:25.160,0:43:30.109 | |||
inability to directly read facts about | |||
0:43:28.430,0:43:33.710 | |||
the real world could even be a saving | |||
0:43:30.109,0:43:36.410 | |||
grace here because like because a | |||
0:43:33.710,0:43:38.029 | |||
blockchain can't directly read like | |||
0:43:36.410,0:43:39.710 | |||
whether or not something in the real | |||
0:43:38.029,0:43:41.239 | |||
world happens it basically me and said | |||
0:43:39.710,0:43:42.739 | |||
if you want to have some application | |||
0:43:41.239,0:43:45.140 | |||
whether a prediction market or something | |||
0:43:42.739,0:43:46.489 | |||
else that does okay so can we say a | |||
0:43:45.140,0:43:48.259 | |||
little bit more about the probably | |||
0:43:46.489,0:43:48.799 | |||
intellectual problem that you're you're | |||
0:43:48.259,0:43:50.690 | |||
in touching | |||
0:43:48.799,0:43:52.999 | |||
so the idea is that there may be | |||
0:43:50.690,0:43:58.130 | |||
something that's very perceptible to us | |||
0:43:52.999,0:44:00.019 | |||
hmm about the real world but we might | |||
0:43:58.130,0:44:01.869 | |||
naively think well the computer should | |||
0:44:00.019,0:44:04.400 | |||
be able to tell whether that happened | |||
0:44:01.869,0:44:07.460 | |||
right or it didn't happen and that | |||
0:44:04.400,0:44:11.630 | |||
that's a surprisingly difficult thing to | |||
0:44:07.460,0:44:15.230 | |||
code up reliably so that the interface | |||
0:44:11.630,0:44:19.420 | |||
between the world of bits and bytes in | |||
0:44:15.230,0:44:22.279 | |||
the world of otherwise physical reality | |||
0:44:19.420,0:44:26.150 | |||
which often we don't realize we're | |||
0:44:22.279,0:44:27.250 | |||
thinking about subjectively hmm that | |||
0:44:26.150,0:44:30.430 | |||
it's hard to | |||
0:44:27.250,0:44:32.530 | |||
maintain that interface so that the way | |||
0:44:30.430,0:44:34.360 | |||
in which the things that have happened | |||
0:44:32.530,0:44:36.550 | |||
in the real world can be definitely | |||
0:44:34.360,0:44:38.830 | |||
agreed upon without us any kind of | |||
0:44:36.550,0:44:40.930 | |||
adjudication inside of the digital right | |||
0:44:38.830,0:44:43.270 | |||
yeah so I don't know how to say that | |||
0:44:40.930,0:44:45.730 | |||
well block chains are an a fundamentally | |||
0:44:43.270,0:44:47.890 | |||
programmatic medium all they see is data | |||
0:44:45.730,0:44:50.650 | |||
that gets fed into them and what they | |||
0:44:47.890,0:44:54.370 | |||
can compute as a result of that data and | |||
0:44:50.650,0:44:56.920 | |||
so if you wants to create a smart | |||
0:44:54.370,0:44:59.560 | |||
contract that says if someone figures | |||
0:44:56.920,0:45:01.330 | |||
out how to what the prime factors have a | |||
0:44:59.560,0:45:03.370 | |||
big number or pay them a reward you can | |||
0:45:01.330,0:45:04.510 | |||
do that because prime prime factors are | |||
0:45:03.370,0:45:07.150 | |||
something that you can multiply together | |||
0:45:04.510,0:45:10.000 | |||
and verify but if he wants to have a | |||
0:45:07.150,0:45:13.000 | |||
smart contract that says if there's a | |||
0:45:10.000,0:45:14.980 | |||
hurricane and in Srilanka then pay five | |||
0:45:13.000,0:45:17.080 | |||
hundred bucks then like you can't do | |||
0:45:14.980,0:45:19.390 | |||
that on the watch in itself because like | |||
0:45:17.080,0:45:20.830 | |||
computer code has no idea what | |||
0:45:19.390,0:45:23.590 | |||
hurricanes are it has no idea what's | |||
0:45:20.830,0:45:26.980 | |||
real like is nobody but in that case | |||
0:45:23.590,0:45:29.710 | |||
could have a designation that you know | |||
0:45:26.980,0:45:31.180 | |||
that the National correct you can you | |||
0:45:29.710,0:45:32.830 | |||
can get data from third-party sources | |||
0:45:31.180,0:45:35.410 | |||
and this is the thing that B else turns | |||
0:45:32.830,0:45:36.910 | |||
it into data exactly this is the the | |||
0:45:35.410,0:45:38.560 | |||
thing that a lot of applications are | |||
0:45:36.910,0:45:41.080 | |||
doing but the thing that's important to | |||
0:45:38.560,0:45:43.360 | |||
keep in mind is that as soon as you do | |||
0:45:41.080,0:45:46.210 | |||
that a guru or smart contractor has no | |||
0:45:43.360,0:45:48.070 | |||
longer fully trust us right right so | |||
0:45:46.210,0:45:52.900 | |||
there's this concept which is like a | |||
0:45:48.070,0:45:54.730 | |||
utopian concept of a trustless legal | |||
0:45:52.900,0:45:57.190 | |||
system so that you don't have the | |||
0:45:54.730,0:45:59.320 | |||
messiness of humans anywhere in the | |||
0:45:57.190,0:46:01.810 | |||
system and you can have complete faith | |||
0:45:59.320,0:46:03.430 | |||
and confidence in the contract that | |||
0:46:01.810,0:46:07.060 | |||
you've struck yeah right and like | |||
0:46:03.430,0:46:08.770 | |||
outside of prude like basically giving | |||
0:46:07.060,0:46:10.870 | |||
bounties for solving math problems so | |||
0:46:08.770,0:46:12.840 | |||
like it's not something that you can | |||
0:46:10.870,0:46:17.470 | |||
100% achieve so I can't necessarily | |||
0:46:12.840,0:46:21.190 | |||
ensure my vacation that if if I go all | |||
0:46:17.470,0:46:24.790 | |||
the way to Argentina and the weather is | |||
0:46:21.190,0:46:26.860 | |||
terrible it pays out because we can't | |||
0:46:24.790,0:46:30.040 | |||
agree what terrible weather is right | |||
0:46:26.860,0:46:32.230 | |||
like you can create structures bit made | |||
0:46:30.040,0:46:35.890 | |||
out of individual participants they can | |||
0:46:32.230,0:46:38.410 | |||
try to and if align incentives to get | |||
0:46:35.890,0:46:40.690 | |||
people to kind of give to give correct | |||
0:46:38.410,0:46:41.150 | |||
results so and you can have complicated | |||
0:46:40.690,0:46:42.619 | |||
and if | |||
0:46:41.150,0:46:43.970 | |||
interruptions involving people giving | |||
0:46:42.619,0:46:46.549 | |||
different answers and policing each | |||
0:46:43.970,0:46:47.960 | |||
other and rewarding people who give the | |||
0:46:46.549,0:46:49.750 | |||
same answer that other people have | |||
0:46:47.960,0:46:53.329 | |||
committed to and things like this but | |||
0:46:49.750,0:46:56.660 | |||
like you can only try to approach the | |||
0:46:53.329,0:46:58.670 | |||
had like the idea love kind of correct | |||
0:46:56.660,0:47:02.960 | |||
truth like you can never 100% reach it | |||
0:46:58.670,0:47:06.799 | |||
now you started aetherium in 2014-2015 | |||
0:47:02.960,0:47:10.039 | |||
um started started end of 2013 I mean it | |||
0:47:06.799,0:47:12.079 | |||
watched in 2015 okay would you say let's | |||
0:47:10.039,0:47:15.760 | |||
use launch data as an artificial sure | |||
0:47:12.079,0:47:21.079 | |||
date would you say you are more or less | |||
0:47:15.760,0:47:23.240 | |||
excited emotionally hmm then you were | |||
0:47:21.079,0:47:27.579 | |||
when it started you've now been through | |||
0:47:23.240,0:47:27.579 | |||
so you've logged some miles here hmm I | |||
0:47:30.069,0:47:37.640 | |||
definitely definitely stay excited I | |||
0:47:34.150,0:47:40.880 | |||
worked I think the main difference is | |||
0:47:37.640,0:47:43.700 | |||
kind of more like definitely a kinda | |||
0:47:40.880,0:47:46.099 | |||
excited in the sense of like four years | |||
0:47:43.700,0:47:48.680 | |||
well definite and like I kind of as | |||
0:47:46.099,0:47:51.349 | |||
opposed to indefinite like four years | |||
0:47:48.680,0:47:54.140 | |||
yeah four years ago was about like hey | |||
0:47:51.349,0:47:56.210 | |||
let's make this platform to kind of try | |||
0:47:54.140,0:47:57.589 | |||
really a bunch of really cool things we | |||
0:47:56.210,0:48:00.020 | |||
have no idea what's gonna happen and | |||
0:47:57.589,0:48:02.630 | |||
let's just stick it out there and now | |||
0:48:00.020,0:48:04.609 | |||
like we know things about things and | |||
0:48:02.630,0:48:07.910 | |||
people are already doing we know things | |||
0:48:04.609,0:48:09.740 | |||
about things that people wants to do on | |||
0:48:07.910,0:48:12.890 | |||
wait hands we'll also know more about | |||
0:48:09.740,0:48:15.140 | |||
Nick what the limitations are and so | |||
0:48:12.890,0:48:17.390 | |||
instead of just being this kind of | |||
0:48:15.140,0:48:19.849 | |||
extremely fuzzy dream of like let's | |||
0:48:17.390,0:48:22.099 | |||
stick smart contracts and algorithms and | |||
0:48:19.849,0:48:27.609 | |||
kind of trust us if I everything right | |||
0:48:22.099,0:48:31.400 | |||
it's something that's kind of both more | |||
0:48:27.609,0:48:34.160 | |||
moderate but also kind of more like | |||
0:48:31.400,0:48:36.140 | |||
seeming much more like it I like it | |||
0:48:34.160,0:48:37.819 | |||
actually has a big chance of kind of | |||
0:48:36.140,0:48:41.029 | |||
transforming the world and of precisely | |||
0:48:37.819,0:48:44.180 | |||
because that's when moderated to some | |||
0:48:41.029,0:48:46.069 | |||
extent so you more if I gave you false | |||
0:48:44.180,0:48:47.990 | |||
three choices and by the way smart | |||
0:48:46.069,0:48:50.029 | |||
people always hate these things so feel | |||
0:48:47.990,0:48:51.589 | |||
free to break the model mmm if I gave | |||
0:48:50.029,0:48:53.710 | |||
you a choice between saying are you | |||
0:48:51.589,0:48:55.180 | |||
mostly excited about | |||
0:48:53.710,0:48:57.730 | |||
the technology and the amount of | |||
0:48:55.180,0:48:59.410 | |||
innovation are you mostly excited about | |||
0:48:57.730,0:49:02.830 | |||
the business opportunities for yourself | |||
0:48:59.410,0:49:06.119 | |||
or are you mostly excited about the way | |||
0:49:02.830,0:49:08.740 | |||
in which this could transform human life | |||
0:49:06.119,0:49:11.560 | |||
would you be that would that be an easy | |||
0:49:08.740,0:49:14.140 | |||
call or would you say I reject that | |||
0:49:11.560,0:49:19.839 | |||
decision tree some mix over the first | |||
0:49:14.140,0:49:21.550 | |||
and the third mm no I just like the | |||
0:49:19.839,0:49:23.619 | |||
framing of business opportunities is | |||
0:49:21.550,0:49:26.800 | |||
definitely kind of never ik like this is | |||
0:49:23.619,0:49:28.510 | |||
weird I mean the despite and I've even I | |||
0:49:26.800,0:49:30.880 | |||
get the sense that you don't love money | |||
0:49:28.510,0:49:34.869 | |||
enough yeah this is true | |||
0:49:30.880,0:49:36.910 | |||
okay hmm I mean it's weird because I for | |||
0:49:34.869,0:49:38.320 | |||
a long time you have a lot of it yeah | |||
0:49:36.910,0:49:40.540 | |||
well I have a lot of it and it's also | |||
0:49:38.320,0:49:43.630 | |||
even weirder because I like for a long | |||
0:49:40.540,0:49:45.700 | |||
time I subscribed so this kind of branch | |||
0:49:43.630,0:49:47.530 | |||
of economics that basically says that | |||
0:49:45.700,0:49:49.750 | |||
like love of money is like the best | |||
0:49:47.530,0:49:55.839 | |||
motivation for B vote for people to have | |||
0:49:49.750,0:49:58.660 | |||
an Randian um well in I'd say make in | |||
0:49:55.839,0:50:00.760 | |||
that area but it's but I don't get that | |||
0:49:58.660,0:50:03.849 | |||
I'll be honest I just don't get that | |||
0:50:00.760,0:50:05.740 | |||
vibe right I mean there's I've | |||
0:50:03.849,0:50:08.800 | |||
definitely kind of shifted a lot over | |||
0:50:05.740,0:50:10.869 | |||
the years I think my experience even | |||
0:50:08.800,0:50:13.300 | |||
within the crypto space itself has kind | |||
0:50:10.869,0:50:17.560 | |||
of trend and given me a lot of new | |||
0:50:13.300,0:50:21.339 | |||
information to work with more like the | |||
0:50:17.560,0:50:24.000 | |||
this basically and then this goes back | |||
0:50:21.339,0:50:26.680 | |||
to this kind of cryptocurrencies as a | |||
0:50:24.000,0:50:33.940 | |||
microcosm of wider society thing right | |||
0:50:26.680,0:50:37.030 | |||
like if you're like basically any like | |||
0:50:33.940,0:50:38.859 | |||
any movements regardless of like what it | |||
0:50:37.030,0:50:40.330 | |||
what the movement is for what its goals | |||
0:50:38.859,0:50:42.339 | |||
are to be succeeded needs to be | |||
0:50:40.330,0:50:43.900 | |||
sufficiently big and once something is | |||
0:50:42.339,0:50:45.880 | |||
sufficiently big it needs to have | |||
0:50:43.900,0:50:47.410 | |||
internal structure to a coordinated | |||
0:50:45.880,0:50:49.960 | |||
initially of its objectives which means | |||
0:50:47.410,0:50:52.270 | |||
that it suffers from governance issues | |||
0:50:49.960,0:50:55.869 | |||
it suffers from public goods the issue | |||
0:50:52.270,0:50:58.750 | |||
is it suffers from conflicts with | |||
0:50:55.869,0:51:01.780 | |||
adjacent movements and suffers from | |||
0:50:58.750,0:51:04.720 | |||
conflicts between its own values and its | |||
0:51:01.780,0:51:06.940 | |||
and its own desire to succeed and so on | |||
0:51:04.720,0:51:10.270 | |||
and so forth and like it needs to | |||
0:51:06.940,0:51:12.849 | |||
come up with ways to answer like | |||
0:51:10.270,0:51:14.109 | |||
basically almost the same kinds of hard | |||
0:51:12.849,0:51:16.960 | |||
problems at the world as a whole is | |||
0:51:14.109,0:51:19.119 | |||
working on well you know it's | |||
0:51:16.960,0:51:22.839 | |||
interesting when I look at this sort of | |||
0:51:19.119,0:51:24.700 | |||
world of people maybe had an epicenter | |||
0:51:22.839,0:51:27.849 | |||
in the Bay Area though I think it's less | |||
0:51:24.700,0:51:29.440 | |||
true now we're trying to figure out what | |||
0:51:27.849,0:51:34.650 | |||
is the future and how do we get there | |||
0:51:29.440,0:51:37.380 | |||
there's a very clear sense that people's | |||
0:51:34.650,0:51:40.920 | |||
creativity and their intelligence is | |||
0:51:37.380,0:51:44.170 | |||
correlated with their financial success | |||
0:51:40.920,0:51:46.240 | |||
but it's not very tight and so there's | |||
0:51:44.170,0:51:48.970 | |||
like an embarrassment that well that | |||
0:51:46.240,0:51:50.920 | |||
person is super amazing and then mm-hmm | |||
0:51:48.970,0:51:53.770 | |||
not doing all that well this person | |||
0:51:50.920,0:51:56.410 | |||
somehow metabolizing amend this amount | |||
0:51:53.770,0:51:58.359 | |||
this is something that I've definitely | |||
0:51:56.410,0:52:01.150 | |||
have realized just from one of my | |||
0:51:58.359,0:52:03.250 | |||
travels like I've interacted with a lot | |||
0:52:01.150,0:52:04.750 | |||
of kind of super famous people in | |||
0:52:03.250,0:52:07.059 | |||
different kinds of positions which | |||
0:52:04.750,0:52:08.920 | |||
includes like some world leaders and | |||
0:52:07.059,0:52:13.240 | |||
includes some kind of leaders of like | |||
0:52:08.920,0:52:16.390 | |||
fields in cryptography and it in you | |||
0:52:13.240,0:52:19.690 | |||
realize that like people in these | |||
0:52:16.390,0:52:22.210 | |||
positions they are impressive but | |||
0:52:19.690,0:52:24.700 | |||
they're not like super amazing godlike | |||
0:52:22.210,0:52:26.109 | |||
impressive right something tomorrow some | |||
0:52:24.700,0:52:27.849 | |||
of them are but then there's also super | |||
0:52:26.109,0:52:29.559 | |||
amazing godlike impressive people that | |||
0:52:27.849,0:52:31.210 | |||
just like don't get her to get that much | |||
0:52:29.559,0:52:34.210 | |||
shit I don't know what I'm trying to get | |||
0:52:31.210,0:52:37.630 | |||
at I think about like if you hang around | |||
0:52:34.210,0:52:39.279 | |||
with musicians very often you'll have | |||
0:52:37.630,0:52:41.170 | |||
some buddies a super famous musicians | |||
0:52:39.279,0:52:42.069 | |||
and you want to who's really good and | |||
0:52:41.170,0:52:45.730 | |||
they'll tell you some of you've never | |||
0:52:42.069,0:52:50.470 | |||
heard of and musician's musician exactly | |||
0:52:45.730,0:52:53.589 | |||
this yes right and so you know if I if I | |||
0:52:50.470,0:52:56.109 | |||
gave the name of people who are famous | |||
0:52:53.589,0:52:57.970 | |||
for being let's say physicists they're | |||
0:52:56.109,0:52:59.890 | |||
very often the people on television as | |||
0:52:57.970,0:53:02.260 | |||
physicists mm-hmm but they would all | |||
0:52:59.890,0:53:03.460 | |||
point to some guy who doesn't give a lot | |||
0:53:02.260,0:53:05.950 | |||
of interviews and say well that's the | |||
0:53:03.460,0:53:10.890 | |||
top guy exactly like basically the | |||
0:53:05.950,0:53:14.440 | |||
social status like is predicted by | |||
0:53:10.890,0:53:17.529 | |||
confidence multiplied by like basically | |||
0:53:14.440,0:53:19.299 | |||
publicity skill and that's half | |||
0:53:17.529,0:53:20.590 | |||
correlated with competence for obvious | |||
0:53:19.299,0:53:21.730 | |||
reasons right like those | |||
0:53:20.590,0:53:22.930 | |||
people also know the people that have | |||
0:53:21.730,0:53:23.920 | |||
the real confidence and that's one of | |||
0:53:22.930,0:53:25.990 | |||
the things that I've always found really | |||
0:53:23.920,0:53:28.900 | |||
interesting about people who have this | |||
0:53:25.990,0:53:32.860 | |||
diehard belief that markets produce | |||
0:53:28.900,0:53:36.250 | |||
justice which is I do think that success | |||
0:53:32.860,0:53:41.950 | |||
in markets is somewhat correlated or has | |||
0:53:36.250,0:53:44.050 | |||
been with things like productivity but | |||
0:53:41.950,0:53:46.270 | |||
it's also correlated sometimes with how | |||
0:53:44.050,0:53:48.340 | |||
predatory somebody can be or you know | |||
0:53:46.270,0:53:51.460 | |||
how lucky they happen to be at a | |||
0:53:48.340,0:53:55.600 | |||
particular moment and one of the | |||
0:53:51.460,0:53:57.130 | |||
questions that I have is if you're | |||
0:53:55.600,0:53:59.170 | |||
really interested in innovation which is | |||
0:53:57.130,0:54:03.250 | |||
what I sort of pick up is you know the | |||
0:53:59.170,0:54:06.910 | |||
main things how does something like | |||
0:54:03.250,0:54:10.660 | |||
aetherium give us a possibility to | |||
0:54:06.910,0:54:12.760 | |||
revitalize innovation after what many of | |||
0:54:10.660,0:54:15.900 | |||
us consider a period of relative | |||
0:54:12.760,0:54:17.740 | |||
stagnancy outside of the areas of | |||
0:54:15.900,0:54:21.310 | |||
computation communication which | |||
0:54:17.740,0:54:24.820 | |||
everybody knows have exploded hmm do you | |||
0:54:21.310,0:54:30.660 | |||
think about how if cerium can mediate a | |||
0:54:24.820,0:54:30.660 | |||
new Renaissance a new generative age | |||
0:54:31.260,0:54:37.990 | |||
about it a little bit definitely and I | |||
0:54:34.060,0:54:42.970 | |||
think I mean there's ten of etherium as | |||
0:54:37.990,0:54:44.650 | |||
a platform for experiments in governance | |||
0:54:42.970,0:54:47.740 | |||
and public goods funding is one thing I | |||
0:54:44.650,0:54:50.350 | |||
mentioned and education is another thing | |||
0:54:47.740,0:54:52.360 | |||
that I end of talk about in the end | |||
0:54:50.350,0:54:54.400 | |||
obviously we do I mean I have a lot of | |||
0:54:52.360,0:54:58.960 | |||
these blog posts on Vitalik dossier in | |||
0:54:54.400,0:55:00.970 | |||
other forums and like they're one of the | |||
0:54:58.960,0:55:04.510 | |||
big challenges that a for example is | |||
0:55:00.970,0:55:06.430 | |||
that like for in and of Internet | |||
0:55:04.510,0:55:08.170 | |||
educational resources in general there's | |||
0:55:06.430,0:55:10.900 | |||
basically two kinds right there's like | |||
0:55:08.170,0:55:13.270 | |||
papers and I Wikipedia and like | |||
0:55:10.900,0:55:14.950 | |||
basically things that are technically | |||
0:55:13.270,0:55:17.590 | |||
accurate but they're just not core ibly | |||
0:55:14.950,0:55:19.510 | |||
not understand understandable at all and | |||
0:55:17.590,0:55:21.490 | |||
we should not be forcing people to even | |||
0:55:19.510,0:55:23.650 | |||
try reading them and then there's pops a | |||
0:55:21.490,0:55:26.080 | |||
literature which is very accessible but | |||
0:55:23.650,0:55:30.280 | |||
it's often just actively wrong in really | |||
0:55:26.080,0:55:31.720 | |||
horrible ways and okay I personally even | |||
0:55:30.280,0:55:33.370 | |||
before a theorem like I did Bitcoin | |||
0:55:31.720,0:55:34.420 | |||
magazine for example like I've always | |||
0:55:33.370,0:55:37.779 | |||
tried | |||
0:55:34.420,0:55:41.410 | |||
to find this kind of middle gap this way | |||
0:55:37.779,0:55:43.839 | |||
to explain can take concepts that are | |||
0:55:41.410,0:55:45.700 | |||
technical and if expand them to a bride | |||
0:55:43.839,0:55:48.519 | |||
a broader audience so they are more | |||
0:55:45.700,0:55:51.569 | |||
accessible and like this to me has been | |||
0:55:48.519,0:55:53.589 | |||
important in part because like I view | |||
0:55:51.569,0:55:55.990 | |||
accessibility of information about the | |||
0:55:53.589,0:55:58.210 | |||
technology as a precondition for even | |||
0:55:55.990,0:55:59.950 | |||
the decentralization of the space like | |||
0:55:58.210,0:56:01.720 | |||
if the thing technically runs on fifty | |||
0:55:59.950,0:56:03.039 | |||
thousand computers but only forty two | |||
0:56:01.720,0:56:04.660 | |||
people know how it works and your | |||
0:56:03.039,0:56:07.960 | |||
decentralization indexes and fifty | |||
0:56:04.660,0:56:10.450 | |||
thousand it's 42 you know and so there's | |||
0:56:07.960,0:56:15.549 | |||
a very nice point yeah and so trying to | |||
0:56:10.450,0:56:17.140 | |||
kind of improve like even how we in the | |||
0:56:15.549,0:56:20.019 | |||
etherium community and if work on | |||
0:56:17.140,0:56:23.470 | |||
innovation internally but so those are | |||
0:56:20.019,0:56:27.700 | |||
kind of things that and if that happened | |||
0:56:23.470,0:56:29.529 | |||
in blockchains as a novella as a lab for | |||
0:56:27.700,0:56:31.680 | |||
trying out new things kind of first for | |||
0:56:29.529,0:56:33.549 | |||
the blockchain space and then | |||
0:56:31.680,0:56:35.890 | |||
potentially export it to other things | |||
0:56:33.549,0:56:38.559 | |||
and then we can also look at head of | |||
0:56:35.890,0:56:41.799 | |||
wall chains as something that can be | |||
0:56:38.559,0:56:45.490 | |||
used to improve and create better | |||
0:56:41.799,0:56:48.069 | |||
institutions so like one of the etherium | |||
0:56:45.490,0:56:50.589 | |||
foundations researchers vlad sam fear he | |||
0:56:48.069,0:56:51.940 | |||
actually got into aetherium because he | |||
0:56:50.589,0:56:55.720 | |||
was working at how to improve academic | |||
0:56:51.940,0:56:57.130 | |||
publishing and like he saw things like | |||
0:56:55.720,0:56:59.890 | |||
you know the existing peer review | |||
0:56:57.130,0:57:01.839 | |||
mechanisms and how they were just a very | |||
0:56:59.890,0:57:05.259 | |||
flawed in a bunch of ways and he thought | |||
0:57:01.839,0:57:07.450 | |||
that like hey here's potentially apply | |||
0:57:05.259,0:57:09.309 | |||
form that we could use to build | |||
0:57:07.450,0:57:12.369 | |||
something that does better and like | |||
0:57:09.309,0:57:15.039 | |||
that's one of his core interests and why | |||
0:57:12.369,0:57:17.410 | |||
he is even continuing to work on the | |||
0:57:15.039,0:57:20.170 | |||
technology you know i hadn't understood | |||
0:57:17.410,0:57:22.750 | |||
how insiders viewed peer review in an | |||
0:57:20.170,0:57:25.569 | |||
academic context until he finance | |||
0:57:22.750,0:57:28.329 | |||
professor got drunk at a party and said | |||
0:57:25.569,0:57:31.029 | |||
you know that guy who's harassing you | |||
0:57:28.329,0:57:32.710 | |||
and your research in finance you don't | |||
0:57:31.029,0:57:34.660 | |||
know why he's doing i said well why do | |||
0:57:32.710,0:57:37.119 | |||
you think he's doing so i know he says | |||
0:57:34.660,0:57:40.210 | |||
we've created a system where our fees | |||
0:57:37.119,0:57:44.380 | |||
are sky-high to consult and we do this | |||
0:57:40.210,0:57:46.539 | |||
by making the number of professors in | |||
0:57:44.380,0:57:47.400 | |||
our field small by controlling peer | |||
0:57:46.539,0:57:49.079 | |||
review | |||
0:57:47.400,0:57:50.670 | |||
and so that effectively we are at | |||
0:57:49.079,0:57:54.359 | |||
conspiracy in restraint like this guy's | |||
0:57:50.670,0:57:56.130 | |||
just telling me straight out that this | |||
0:57:54.359,0:57:58.500 | |||
is a gating function to keep their | |||
0:57:56.130,0:58:00.569 | |||
consulting fees high and that this guy | |||
0:57:58.500,0:58:02.609 | |||
is gonna do everything that they tell | |||
0:58:00.569,0:58:04.109 | |||
him to do because otherwise he can't | |||
0:58:02.609,0:58:07.200 | |||
come into the club and charge these | |||
0:58:04.109,0:58:09.869 | |||
rates that sounds about right | |||
0:58:07.200,0:58:11.339 | |||
right so him that one of the app another | |||
0:58:09.869,0:58:13.559 | |||
killer application so you have one | |||
0:58:11.339,0:58:15.569 | |||
potential suite of applications which | |||
0:58:13.559,0:58:18.359 | |||
have to do with facilitating illegality | |||
0:58:15.569,0:58:20.910 | |||
some of that might regard will result in | |||
0:58:18.359,0:58:24.180 | |||
net reduction of harm because you could | |||
0:58:20.910,0:58:27.900 | |||
replace violence with math yes on the | |||
0:58:24.180,0:58:31.410 | |||
other hand a place where you could have | |||
0:58:27.900,0:58:36.779 | |||
a really positive effect is political | |||
0:58:31.410,0:58:40.980 | |||
economy where by removing the human | |||
0:58:36.779,0:58:43.289 | |||
ability to act badly you effectively | |||
0:58:40.980,0:58:47.880 | |||
create a much fairer more representative | |||
0:58:43.289,0:58:50.520 | |||
world exactly you know what do we do so | |||
0:58:47.880,0:58:52.260 | |||
you have an interest in in the two | |||
0:58:50.520,0:58:55.440 | |||
fields that I find Wikipedia can't | |||
0:58:52.260,0:58:58.470 | |||
explain to any normal human being our | |||
0:58:55.440,0:59:00.359 | |||
theoretical math and physics even | |||
0:58:58.470,0:59:01.829 | |||
biology you can sort of guess what's | |||
0:59:00.359,0:59:04.950 | |||
going on because you have something | |||
0:59:01.829,0:59:07.260 | |||
concrete to the area but even biology | |||
0:59:04.950,0:59:08.609 | |||
like you got a learn math the deeply | |||
0:59:07.260,0:59:11.010 | |||
grok it because otherwise you're just | |||
0:59:08.609,0:59:14.910 | |||
memorizing like names of chemicals well | |||
0:59:11.010,0:59:19.260 | |||
but you could my here I have a PhD in | |||
0:59:14.910,0:59:22.349 | |||
math if I try to read a math paper one | |||
0:59:19.260,0:59:25.319 | |||
or two fields over from my own field | |||
0:59:22.349,0:59:27.420 | |||
right I will do less well with it than | |||
0:59:25.319,0:59:29.119 | |||
if I read a biology paper and even | |||
0:59:27.420,0:59:32.220 | |||
though I've taken no class in biology | |||
0:59:29.119,0:59:35.880 | |||
that sounds right yeah yeah like there's | |||
0:59:32.220,0:59:38.299 | |||
a difference between the level of math | |||
0:59:35.880,0:59:41.010 | |||
that you have to know it's you just | |||
0:59:38.299,0:59:44.039 | |||
because it's important for you as a | |||
0:59:41.010,0:59:45.720 | |||
philosopher and then and like that's | |||
0:59:44.039,0:59:47.760 | |||
about the level of math that I think you | |||
0:59:45.720,0:59:49.319 | |||
need even to be good at biology to be | |||
0:59:47.760,0:59:52.410 | |||
good at economics to be good at a lot of | |||
0:59:49.319,0:59:54.420 | |||
things right it's understanding like | |||
0:59:52.410,0:59:57.119 | |||
principles even things like for example | |||
0:59:54.420,0:59:59.460 | |||
if you have a trade-off between x and y | |||
0:59:57.119,1:00:01.240 | |||
and right now you're optimizing entirely | |||
0:59:59.460,1:00:03.490 | |||
for x and it's a smooth curve | |||
1:00:01.240,1:00:04.900 | |||
then if he wants a little bit of Y then | |||
1:00:03.490,1:00:06.940 | |||
you can get your first bit of Y at | |||
1:00:04.900,1:00:10.030 | |||
almost like zero cost of X right and | |||
1:00:06.940,1:00:12.460 | |||
that's just a prop like it's a property | |||
1:00:10.030,1:00:13.960 | |||
of continuous functions that look from | |||
1:00:12.460,1:00:16.960 | |||
the maximum of the derivative starts at | |||
1:00:13.960,1:00:19.960 | |||
zero you know like if you kind of just | |||
1:00:16.960,1:00:22.180 | |||
deeply kind of mentally grok about like | |||
1:00:19.960,1:00:23.560 | |||
a couple hundred of these facts the way | |||
1:00:22.180,1:00:25.810 | |||
you're deeply kind of mentally grow out | |||
1:00:23.560,1:00:28.210 | |||
like how to walk then like you get a lot | |||
1:00:25.810,1:00:30.130 | |||
but then from there there's also like | |||
1:00:28.210,1:00:32.860 | |||
the frontiers and often I mean the | |||
1:00:30.130,1:00:34.210 | |||
frontiers were most important well so | |||
1:00:32.860,1:00:36.850 | |||
here's a weird thing I don't know how to | |||
1:00:34.210,1:00:37.750 | |||
bring up when I try to understand crypto | |||
1:00:36.850,1:00:40.680 | |||
as a space | |||
1:00:37.750,1:00:43.600 | |||
I'm always confronted by how incredibly | |||
1:00:40.680,1:00:46.390 | |||
Byzantine and impossible it is to | |||
1:00:43.600,1:00:48.369 | |||
understand all of the acronyms all of | |||
1:00:46.390,1:00:53.440 | |||
the sub pieces of history I mean it's an | |||
1:00:48.369,1:00:56.650 | |||
incredibly fragmented experience in | |||
1:00:53.440,1:01:02.280 | |||
which I spend a long period of time just | |||
1:00:56.650,1:01:05.290 | |||
feeling moronic isn't it odd that like | |||
1:01:02.280,1:01:07.240 | |||
etherium itself suffers from this this | |||
1:01:05.290,1:01:09.420 | |||
problem it's hard to know what's going | |||
1:01:07.240,1:01:12.580 | |||
on yeah it's definitely something that | |||
1:01:09.420,1:01:15.220 | |||
we wants to fix so if I mean if you ever | |||
1:01:12.580,1:01:16.540 | |||
have suggestions on like what | |||
1:01:15.220,1:01:18.010 | |||
specifically we could make more | |||
1:01:16.540,1:01:21.520 | |||
understandable I'm always happy to hear | |||
1:01:18.010,1:01:23.700 | |||
those fantastic now one thing that I | |||
1:01:21.520,1:01:27.190 | |||
think is really interesting is this | |||
1:01:23.700,1:01:30.790 | |||
episode that occurred in the etherium | |||
1:01:27.190,1:01:35.440 | |||
space in which you are faced with a very | |||
1:01:30.790,1:01:40.000 | |||
serious question of leadership having to | |||
1:01:35.440,1:01:42.910 | |||
do with an emergency that you could have | |||
1:01:40.000,1:01:45.100 | |||
either allowed to follow the rules that | |||
1:01:42.910,1:01:48.850 | |||
had been previously specified in some | |||
1:01:45.100,1:01:50.650 | |||
sense or could where you could interject | |||
1:01:48.850,1:01:53.140 | |||
a certain amount of human intervention | |||
1:01:50.650,1:01:57.130 | |||
but thereby letting people know that | |||
1:01:53.140,1:01:59.830 | |||
this was to some extent not mediated | |||
1:01:57.130,1:02:01.270 | |||
only by rules and computers can you can | |||
1:01:59.830,1:02:05.380 | |||
you say a little bit about this famous | |||
1:02:01.270,1:02:07.660 | |||
incident and sure so in 2016 there was | |||
1:02:05.380,1:02:11.050 | |||
this smart contract that a group called | |||
1:02:07.660,1:02:13.050 | |||
salokya launched called the dao and do | |||
1:02:11.050,1:02:15.040 | |||
stands for a decentralized autonomous | |||
1:02:13.050,1:02:17.110 | |||
organization and such our my team | |||
1:02:15.040,1:02:19.840 | |||
with about three years before and it | |||
1:02:17.110,1:02:21.580 | |||
basically means that maybe you can have | |||
1:02:19.840,1:02:24.850 | |||
a smart contract to this computer | |||
1:02:21.580,1:02:27.130 | |||
program that controls digital assets and | |||
1:02:24.850,1:02:30.280 | |||
if encode a set of rules for an | |||
1:02:27.130,1:02:31.930 | |||
organization and like you can use this | |||
1:02:30.280,1:02:33.580 | |||
kind of smart contract basically as a | |||
1:02:31.930,1:02:36.430 | |||
replacement for things like companies | |||
1:02:33.580,1:02:39.970 | |||
and so some I could decide to launch a | |||
1:02:36.430,1:02:42.610 | |||
Dao and their Dao was intended to be | |||
1:02:39.970,1:02:47.080 | |||
basically a decentralized VC fund so | |||
1:02:42.610,1:02:48.910 | |||
people could apply the Dao would vote on | |||
1:02:47.080,1:02:51.610 | |||
which projects were worth investing in | |||
1:02:48.910,1:02:57.130 | |||
so leaderless rule-based yeah and | |||
1:02:51.610,1:02:59.740 | |||
virtual exactly know is they hit hit all | |||
1:02:57.130,1:03:02.320 | |||
the cypherpunk nodes that they're in the | |||
1:02:59.740,1:03:05.710 | |||
right place okay and the thing launched | |||
1:03:02.320,1:03:08.200 | |||
and we were all expecting it during its | |||
1:03:05.710,1:03:10.600 | |||
kind of initial fundraising phase which | |||
1:03:08.200,1:03:12.730 | |||
was also like an open public blockchain | |||
1:03:10.600,1:03:15.430 | |||
process and to maybe get five million | |||
1:03:12.730,1:03:18.130 | |||
dollars but then it got five and it got | |||
1:03:15.430,1:03:19.900 | |||
ten and I got twenty I got fifty and a | |||
1:03:18.130,1:03:23.950 | |||
hundred and then the price of youth went | |||
1:03:19.900,1:03:26.710 | |||
up and I got two hundred and then when I | |||
1:03:23.950,1:03:29.130 | |||
was sitting at AF friends was it all | |||
1:03:26.710,1:03:31.990 | |||
alarming that it was so successful | |||
1:03:29.130,1:03:33.970 | |||
after the 50 mark I definitely have | |||
1:03:31.990,1:03:35.920 | |||
switched from excitement's to deep | |||
1:03:33.970,1:03:38.050 | |||
apprehension but you know it's a | |||
1:03:35.920,1:03:41.530 | |||
contract did you let on that that you | |||
1:03:38.050,1:03:45.490 | |||
were feeling that way a bit okay yeah so | |||
1:03:41.530,1:03:47.650 | |||
on a June 17th 2016 and when I was in | |||
1:03:45.490,1:03:52.930 | |||
Shanghai at a a friend's apartment and | |||
1:03:47.650,1:03:57.670 | |||
it was about fifteen thirty something in | |||
1:03:52.930,1:04:00.160 | |||
the afternoon I saw a message in one of | |||
1:03:57.670,1:04:02.350 | |||
the Skype chats that it was that I was | |||
1:04:00.160,1:04:03.970 | |||
in and someone basically was saying hey | |||
1:04:02.350,1:04:05.350 | |||
guys look at the Dow it seems like | |||
1:04:03.970,1:04:08.770 | |||
there's some money coming out of it and | |||
1:04:05.350,1:04:12.070 | |||
so I checked on the public black | |||
1:04:08.770,1:04:14.350 | |||
Explorer on the blockchain and I saw oh | |||
1:04:12.070,1:04:16.570 | |||
look that it seems like about two | |||
1:04:14.350,1:04:19.420 | |||
million dollar has actually already been | |||
1:04:16.570,1:04:21.670 | |||
removed from the Dow and more ethos and | |||
1:04:19.420,1:04:24.370 | |||
of slowly being drained over time and so | |||
1:04:21.670,1:04:26.880 | |||
I pinged the core developers and I asked | |||
1:04:24.370,1:04:30.060 | |||
hey is this normal and | |||
1:04:26.880,1:04:31.710 | |||
at first I was thinking okay the | |||
1:04:30.060,1:04:33.510 | |||
alternative is unthinkable there has to | |||
1:04:31.710,1:04:36.660 | |||
be a reasonable explanation for this | |||
1:04:33.510,1:04:41.400 | |||
and so you were locked into some sort of | |||
1:04:36.660,1:04:44.400 | |||
denial for at the beginning yes and the | |||
1:04:41.400,1:04:46.710 | |||
developers looked at it and over the | |||
1:04:44.400,1:04:48.540 | |||
next half-hour as more and more people | |||
1:04:46.710,1:04:50.580 | |||
came online and started chattering with | |||
1:04:48.540,1:04:54.350 | |||
each other it became clear that the | |||
1:04:50.580,1:04:57.330 | |||
unthinkable has actually happened and I | |||
1:04:54.350,1:05:01.470 | |||
actually burned about 20 of my own if | |||
1:04:57.330,1:05:03.480 | |||
like basically just tossing the ethereum | |||
1:05:01.470,1:05:05.670 | |||
blockchain in itself and just spamming | |||
1:05:03.480,1:05:07.680 | |||
it with transactions to try to and if so | |||
1:05:05.670,1:05:09.090 | |||
low the attacker I've seen is denial of | |||
1:05:07.680,1:05:10.620 | |||
service yeah yeah just spam the | |||
1:05:09.090,1:05:13.020 | |||
blockchain with dren that got all of my | |||
1:05:10.620,1:05:14.970 | |||
listeners will know the terms okay so | |||
1:05:13.020,1:05:16.260 | |||
that the attackers transactions could | |||
1:05:14.970,1:05:17.850 | |||
not get in as quickly because the | |||
1:05:16.260,1:05:20.100 | |||
attackers transact the attacker could | |||
1:05:17.850,1:05:21.720 | |||
only withdraw something like a couple | |||
1:05:20.100,1:05:24.210 | |||
hundred East with every transaction so | |||
1:05:21.720,1:05:26.970 | |||
it was a slow process like in the hopes | |||
1:05:24.210,1:05:29.130 | |||
that the developers would find some way | |||
1:05:26.970,1:05:30.990 | |||
to ply was an intentional inefficiency | |||
1:05:29.130,1:05:32.820 | |||
or was just that it was it was not | |||
1:05:30.990,1:05:34.500 | |||
intentional so in some weird way the | |||
1:05:32.820,1:05:35.940 | |||
inefficiency was a good thing yes it | |||
1:05:34.500,1:05:37.620 | |||
gets even weirder there was an even | |||
1:05:35.940,1:05:39.560 | |||
bigger and efficiency that would that | |||
1:05:37.620,1:05:43.890 | |||
would prove to be an even better thing | |||
1:05:39.560,1:05:46.290 | |||
so but then the developers however did | |||
1:05:43.890,1:05:48.360 | |||
not find a way to plug the hole but the | |||
1:05:46.290,1:05:50.730 | |||
attacker voluntarily stopped after | |||
1:05:48.360,1:05:53.550 | |||
stealing about 4 million eath from the | |||
1:05:50.730,1:05:55.740 | |||
dough but in any case the this is a | |||
1:05:53.550,1:05:58.680 | |||
second in efficiency it voluntarily | |||
1:05:55.740,1:06:01.200 | |||
stopped yeah there was a request made no | |||
1:05:58.680,1:06:06.900 | |||
no as in the attacker just stopped ok | |||
1:06:01.200,1:06:07.680 | |||
and and so here's the second and bigger | |||
1:06:06.900,1:06:10.710 | |||
in efficiency | |||
1:06:07.680,1:06:13.170 | |||
the money that was the attacker took out | |||
1:06:10.710,1:06:14.600 | |||
the four million eighth it did not go | |||
1:06:13.170,1:06:17.130 | |||
into the attacker swallow it immediately | |||
1:06:14.600,1:06:20.550 | |||
instead it went into a child smart | |||
1:06:17.130,1:06:22.050 | |||
contract and only after 35 days could | |||
1:06:20.550,1:06:24.450 | |||
the attacker action we take that money | |||
1:06:22.050,1:06:27.030 | |||
out and this was child smart contract | |||
1:06:24.450,1:06:30.120 | |||
you mean a separate smart contract that | |||
1:06:27.030,1:06:33.750 | |||
was created through a function call of | |||
1:06:30.120,1:06:36.420 | |||
the main Dao smart contract ok so this | |||
1:06:33.750,1:06:39.470 | |||
was also not intended right it was just | |||
1:06:36.420,1:06:40.890 | |||
like a random quirk of this of fate that | |||
1:06:39.470,1:06:43.080 | |||
there was this | |||
1:06:40.890,1:06:44.940 | |||
big bug that was the biggest smart | |||
1:06:43.080,1:06:47.910 | |||
contract theft in history up until that | |||
1:06:44.940,1:06:50.280 | |||
point and it put the money into this | |||
1:06:47.910,1:06:52.410 | |||
convenient box were just a conveniently | |||
1:06:50.280,1:06:57.180 | |||
locked for 35 days where everyone could | |||
1:06:52.410,1:07:00.540 | |||
stare and look at it oh yeah and the | |||
1:06:57.180,1:07:02.580 | |||
soon after this there were calls | |||
1:07:00.540,1:07:04.560 | |||
happening between core developers and | |||
1:07:02.580,1:07:07.950 | |||
the proposal to remedy the situation | |||
1:07:04.560,1:07:10.320 | |||
with a blockchain fork I came into play | |||
1:07:07.950,1:07:12.840 | |||
right so basically what happened here is | |||
1:07:10.320,1:07:15.120 | |||
the it was a blockchain fork an | |||
1:07:12.840,1:07:19.230 | |||
emotional issue for this community yeah | |||
1:07:15.120,1:07:20.850 | |||
so why is it so what I guess first of | |||
1:07:19.230,1:07:24.150 | |||
all what is it exactly so explain what | |||
1:07:20.850,1:07:25.830 | |||
what would happen so in general a | |||
1:07:24.150,1:07:29.040 | |||
blockchain forcus on normal process | |||
1:07:25.830,1:07:30.930 | |||
right you have an upgrade and the | |||
1:07:29.040,1:07:33.720 | |||
developers of the etherium clients | |||
1:07:30.930,1:07:36.390 | |||
implement code that basically says after | |||
1:07:33.720,1:07:38.790 | |||
block number four three seven zero zero | |||
1:07:36.390,1:07:40.170 | |||
zero zero stop processing blocks | |||
1:07:38.790,1:07:41.640 | |||
according to the old rules start | |||
1:07:40.170,1:07:43.260 | |||
processing blocks according to the new | |||
1:07:41.640,1:07:47.250 | |||
rules which have extra features attached | |||
1:07:43.260,1:07:53.000 | |||
and where blocks are just said packages | |||
1:07:47.250,1:07:56.940 | |||
of transactions okay and B's and so ever | |||
1:07:53.000,1:07:59.100 | |||
before this sub I know these code | |||
1:07:56.940,1:08:01.110 | |||
patches are formally proposed there is | |||
1:07:59.100,1:08:02.730 | |||
this month-long period of mini month | |||
1:08:01.110,1:08:05.070 | |||
long period of deliberation we are | |||
1:08:02.730,1:08:08.130 | |||
changes or proposed people discuss them | |||
1:08:05.070,1:08:09.960 | |||
people talk about them and generally | |||
1:08:08.130,1:08:12.450 | |||
it's agreed that these changes are good | |||
1:08:09.960,1:08:14.160 | |||
and so people just go and download the | |||
1:08:12.450,1:08:16.470 | |||
code and because everyone's downloaded | |||
1:08:14.160,1:08:18.150 | |||
the code the blockchain after block four | |||
1:08:16.470,1:08:19.320 | |||
three seven zero zero zero zero follows | |||
1:08:18.150,1:08:22.290 | |||
these difference in better it's a very | |||
1:08:19.320,1:08:24.300 | |||
warm and very human process yeah called | |||
1:08:22.290,1:08:29.130 | |||
logic of a machine exactly | |||
1:08:24.300,1:08:31.920 | |||
and so the dal Fork | |||
1:08:29.130,1:08:34.350 | |||
it was also a fork it was also a code | |||
1:08:31.920,1:08:38.550 | |||
change implemented by the developers of | |||
1:08:34.350,1:08:41.610 | |||
the clients that is it was pushed out | |||
1:08:38.550,1:08:43.530 | |||
through a new version of the different | |||
1:08:41.610,1:08:45.900 | |||
clients that people could download and | |||
1:08:43.530,1:08:49.320 | |||
users went ahead and voluntarily | |||
1:08:45.900,1:08:51.000 | |||
downloaded it and it would basically | |||
1:08:49.320,1:08:52.680 | |||
change the rules of the blockchain | |||
1:08:51.000,1:08:53.849 | |||
except instead of changing them | |||
1:08:52.680,1:08:55.859 | |||
permanently | |||
1:08:53.849,1:08:58.079 | |||
it would only do what a single one time | |||
1:08:55.859,1:09:01.529 | |||
change and the single one time change | |||
1:08:58.079,1:09:03.509 | |||
basically said during block one one nine | |||
1:09:01.529,1:09:06.599 | |||
two zero zero zero zero before | |||
1:09:03.509,1:09:09.989 | |||
processing any transactions take the | |||
1:09:06.599,1:09:11.790 | |||
ether that stuck in the this child | |||
1:09:09.989,1:09:13.739 | |||
contract and move it into another | |||
1:09:11.790,1:09:17.819 | |||
contract that could then basically | |||
1:09:13.739,1:09:20.339 | |||
refund it all to the victims and so this | |||
1:09:17.819,1:09:22.859 | |||
is a very kind of manual intervention | |||
1:09:20.339,1:09:25.310 | |||
right it basically says like we all | |||
1:09:22.859,1:09:27.420 | |||
agree it's a run code that just | |||
1:09:25.310,1:09:29.159 | |||
irregularly takes this money and just | |||
1:09:27.420,1:09:32.339 | |||
reassigns it so that's other thing so | |||
1:09:29.159,1:09:34.469 | |||
the the it's very weird because you know | |||
1:09:32.339,1:09:37.020 | |||
we always think in like a sci-fi movie | |||
1:09:34.469,1:09:39.810 | |||
that some thing that you think is human | |||
1:09:37.020,1:09:42.329 | |||
would rip off its mask and reveal itself | |||
1:09:39.810,1:09:44.520 | |||
to be a computer and this is the reverse | |||
1:09:42.329,1:09:47.609 | |||
exactly pewter face is ripped off | |||
1:09:44.520,1:09:50.880 | |||
revealing humans behind this this | |||
1:09:47.609,1:09:53.099 | |||
technological stack yes and I mean | |||
1:09:50.880,1:09:56.730 | |||
ultimately like people talk about head | |||
1:09:53.099,1:09:58.889 | |||
of blockchain immutability and like this | |||
1:09:56.730,1:10:00.900 | |||
is this idea that basically you're not | |||
1:09:58.889,1:10:03.119 | |||
supposed to do this sort of thing and | |||
1:10:00.900,1:10:05.909 | |||
where does that supposed to come from | |||
1:10:03.119,1:10:08.010 | |||
exactly it so like there is there's | |||
1:10:05.909,1:10:09.810 | |||
definitely a sense in which it exists | |||
1:10:08.010,1:10:11.190 | |||
technologically because like actually | |||
1:10:09.810,1:10:14.369 | |||
pulling off one of these Forks is | |||
1:10:11.190,1:10:16.139 | |||
incredibly hard and for example if it | |||
1:10:14.369,1:10:18.300 | |||
was not the case that the money was | |||
1:10:16.139,1:10:20.550 | |||
conveniently stuck there and one nice | |||
1:10:18.300,1:10:22.079 | |||
little address for 35 days it would | |||
1:10:20.550,1:10:24.179 | |||
basically not have been possible to do | |||
1:10:22.079,1:10:26.280 | |||
it right because when as soon as you | |||
1:10:24.179,1:10:27.719 | |||
announced this protocol change that says | |||
1:10:26.280,1:10:29.550 | |||
we're gonna take money out of CR put it | |||
1:10:27.719,1:10:30.840 | |||
in there the attacker could just move | |||
1:10:29.550,1:10:33.510 | |||
the money from there to a different | |||
1:10:30.840,1:10:34.770 | |||
address and basically you play this | |||
1:10:33.510,1:10:37.349 | |||
cat-and-mouse game and the attacker | |||
1:10:34.770,1:10:39.989 | |||
could win but sometimes there is this | |||
1:10:37.349,1:10:41.940 | |||
possibility where you up so that we can | |||
1:10:39.989,1:10:44.820 | |||
and just like do these interventions and | |||
1:10:41.940,1:10:46.199 | |||
you can just decide to stop writing this | |||
1:10:44.820,1:10:50.159 | |||
code and start running this other code | |||
1:10:46.199,1:10:52.500 | |||
and the only reason why this has not | |||
1:10:50.159,1:10:54.929 | |||
done more frequently is basically | |||
1:10:52.500,1:10:57.060 | |||
because their existing norms right in | |||
1:10:54.929,1:10:58.770 | |||
their existing norms in the blockchain | |||
1:10:57.060,1:11:00.510 | |||
community of lads iam fear of the | |||
1:10:58.770,1:11:03.150 | |||
researcher I mentioned before and if | |||
1:11:00.510,1:11:05.849 | |||
calls them a Szabo's Ally and named | |||
1:11:03.150,1:11:07.409 | |||
after nick szabo and and nick szabo | |||
1:11:05.849,1:11:08.900 | |||
actually just likes the moniker | |||
1:11:07.409,1:11:10.769 | |||
like it is a pretty accurate | |||
1:11:08.900,1:11:12.900 | |||
representation of kind of his beliefs | |||
1:11:10.769,1:11:15.110 | |||
witches and the beliefs of many in the | |||
1:11:12.900,1:11:18.869 | |||
crypto community which is basically that | |||
1:11:15.110,1:11:21.630 | |||
like even though it technically is code | |||
1:11:18.869,1:11:24.840 | |||
run by humans we should act as though it | |||
1:11:21.630,1:11:27.059 | |||
is code not run by humans and look | |||
1:11:24.840,1:11:29.249 | |||
because it is digital gold right gold is | |||
1:11:27.059,1:11:30.479 | |||
not run by humans gold is gold and so if | |||
1:11:29.249,1:11:32.550 | |||
we want to make something that is a | |||
1:11:30.479,1:11:34.289 | |||
light gold then even though we're | |||
1:11:32.550,1:11:35.939 | |||
unfortunately stuck with this thing run | |||
1:11:34.289,1:11:38.459 | |||
by humans we should what try as hard as | |||
1:11:35.939,1:11:40.260 | |||
we can to pretend it's not and like this | |||
1:11:38.459,1:11:42.719 | |||
was the ideology of a lot of people in | |||
1:11:40.260,1:11:46.260 | |||
this space and the dal fork very much | |||
1:11:42.719,1:11:50.789 | |||
went against this ideology and so even | |||
1:11:46.260,1:11:52.409 | |||
though in my opinion like having norms | |||
1:11:50.789,1:11:54.300 | |||
that you can't just like go and edit | |||
1:11:52.409,1:11:57.150 | |||
whatever you want is valuable but like | |||
1:11:54.300,1:11:58.769 | |||
when so such a large fraction of the | |||
1:11:57.150,1:12:00.869 | |||
ecosystem is at stake it's worth | |||
1:11:58.769,1:12:02.969 | |||
rethinking things but like other people | |||
1:12:00.869,1:12:04.889 | |||
were and if even more rigid in this | |||
1:12:02.969,1:12:06.209 | |||
regard and so there was this kind of | |||
1:12:04.889,1:12:08.939 | |||
split in the community | |||
1:12:06.209,1:12:10.709 | |||
and a portion of the community actually | |||
1:12:08.939,1:12:12.389 | |||
did not download the updates right a | |||
1:12:10.709,1:12:13.949 | |||
portion of the community did not | |||
1:12:12.389,1:12:16.139 | |||
download these code patches and | |||
1:12:13.949,1:12:17.820 | |||
implement the fork and they just said we | |||
1:12:16.139,1:12:20.579 | |||
will continue running our own our old | |||
1:12:17.820,1:12:22.559 | |||
chain and the old chain has since then | |||
1:12:20.579,1:12:26.249 | |||
been called a theorem classic and it | |||
1:12:22.559,1:12:30.650 | |||
runs to this day this is a fascinating | |||
1:12:26.249,1:12:33.209 | |||
civil war you know in essence yes and | |||
1:12:30.650,1:12:34.919 | |||
what I get out of this is that there's | |||
1:12:33.209,1:12:37.949 | |||
this very weird thing which is that | |||
1:12:34.919,1:12:41.039 | |||
people get very attached to ideologies | |||
1:12:37.949,1:12:43.019 | |||
and then they come to understand why the | |||
1:12:41.039,1:12:46.709 | |||
simplistic version of that ideology | |||
1:12:43.019,1:12:49.079 | |||
can't possibly work in a warm human | |||
1:12:46.709,1:12:51.059 | |||
system I watched this it you have you | |||
1:12:49.079,1:12:53.550 | |||
ever gone to this festival called a | |||
1:12:51.059,1:12:55.380 | |||
femoral which is sort of Burning Man on | |||
1:12:53.550,1:12:56.909 | |||
the water it was I was part of it and I | |||
1:12:55.380,1:12:58.709 | |||
got invited to it but I haven't had the | |||
1:12:56.909,1:13:01.559 | |||
chance to go yet so it's kind of a | |||
1:12:58.709,1:13:04.679 | |||
libertarian Waterworld in the Sacramento | |||
1:13:01.559,1:13:08.219 | |||
Delta and what was interesting is is | |||
1:13:04.679,1:13:10.229 | |||
that one year in order to come to the | |||
1:13:08.219,1:13:11.820 | |||
festival you had to have a lecture and | |||
1:13:10.229,1:13:14.189 | |||
you had to agree that you would receive | |||
1:13:11.820,1:13:15.449 | |||
the lecture because of problems that had | |||
1:13:14.189,1:13:17.249 | |||
happened the previous year | |||
1:13:15.449,1:13:21.170 | |||
and you realize that these libertarians | |||
1:13:17.249,1:13:24.260 | |||
were being forced to invent governance | |||
1:13:21.170,1:13:27.469 | |||
and rather than just anarchy you had to | |||
1:13:24.260,1:13:30.320 | |||
have some organized system and so one of | |||
1:13:27.469,1:13:34.690 | |||
my questions is is that is that dream of | |||
1:13:30.320,1:13:34.690 | |||
escape from the heavy hand of government | |||
1:13:35.469,1:13:41.870 | |||
effectively not something to be pursued | |||
1:13:39.040,1:13:43.969 | |||
inside of crypto space for the most part | |||
1:13:41.870,1:13:45.710 | |||
because we realized that it is going to | |||
1:13:43.969,1:13:47.890 | |||
require governance and that we can't | |||
1:13:45.710,1:13:51.920 | |||
figure out a way to turn this into a | |||
1:13:47.890,1:13:54.080 | |||
completely cold and methodical process | |||
1:13:51.920,1:13:56.960 | |||
it depends on which portion of the dream | |||
1:13:54.080,1:13:58.940 | |||
you subscribe to like the if the version | |||
1:13:56.960,1:14:02.000 | |||
of the dream you subscribe to is the | |||
1:13:58.940,1:14:05.199 | |||
dream that says that we can finally use | |||
1:14:02.000,1:14:08.840 | |||
algorithms to I basically completely | |||
1:14:05.199,1:14:13.190 | |||
eliminate humans ability to interfere in | |||
1:14:08.840,1:14:15.920 | |||
things then like if if your goal is to | |||
1:14:13.190,1:14:18.739 | |||
see that enforced 100 percent then like | |||
1:14:15.920,1:14:22.760 | |||
no you're not going to get that if your | |||
1:14:18.739,1:14:25.820 | |||
dream is that you dislike how | |||
1:14:22.760,1:14:27.380 | |||
governments have had existing | |||
1:14:25.820,1:14:29.840 | |||
governments and monopolies of violence | |||
1:14:27.380,1:14:32.300 | |||
have hegemony over this social function | |||
1:14:29.840,1:14:34.699 | |||
of coordination and enforcing structures | |||
1:14:32.300,1:14:37.190 | |||
of rules and you want there to exist an | |||
1:14:34.699,1:14:39.880 | |||
alternative then like that's something | |||
1:14:37.190,1:14:44.750 | |||
that we can talk about right so I mean | |||
1:14:39.880,1:14:48.800 | |||
if if the dream is to augments yes and I | |||
1:14:44.750,1:14:50.719 | |||
mean I'd argue that the block chains | |||
1:14:48.800,1:14:53.360 | |||
have a variant of necessary role now | |||
1:14:50.719,1:14:55.250 | |||
especially a kind of given modern kind | |||
1:14:53.360,1:14:58.130 | |||
of political trends work there basically | |||
1:14:55.250,1:15:00.500 | |||
is no single traditional political body | |||
1:14:58.130,1:15:01.850 | |||
that's accepted as trustworthy by the | |||
1:15:00.500,1:15:04.310 | |||
entire world and it doesn't look like | |||
1:15:01.850,1:15:07.670 | |||
there's going to be one but if your | |||
1:15:04.310,1:15:10.160 | |||
dream is to and if completely over | |||
1:15:07.670,1:15:11.870 | |||
overturn things and have some simplistic | |||
1:15:10.160,1:15:13.870 | |||
notion of digital property rights as the | |||
1:15:11.870,1:15:17.630 | |||
only thing that governs behavior then | |||
1:15:13.870,1:15:19.820 | |||
that's something that like you can try | |||
1:15:17.630,1:15:21.170 | |||
for but you're not going to succeed let | |||
1:15:19.820,1:15:23.510 | |||
me try something else with you that I'm | |||
1:15:21.170,1:15:26.179 | |||
curious about you and I are both plugged | |||
1:15:23.510,1:15:29.030 | |||
in to this weird alternate world that | |||
1:15:26.179,1:15:29.919 | |||
thinks very differently and I had Andrew | |||
1:15:29.030,1:15:31.510 | |||
yang | |||
1:15:29.919,1:15:35.050 | |||
in that chair and you saw that episode | |||
1:15:31.510,1:15:38.010 | |||
of the the point before some people call | |||
1:15:35.050,1:15:41.409 | |||
this neuro divergence that this is a non | |||
1:15:38.010,1:15:46.380 | |||
neurotypical world and I would say that | |||
1:15:41.409,1:15:50.590 | |||
both you and I exhibit some indicia of | |||
1:15:46.380,1:15:52.300 | |||
not thinking along standard lines the | |||
1:15:50.590,1:15:55.599 | |||
thing that occurred to me is that you | |||
1:15:52.300,1:15:59.110 | |||
brought up slight star codex which is | |||
1:15:55.599,1:16:02.679 | |||
this website that is extremely | |||
1:15:59.110,1:16:03.699 | |||
influential in our shared world and I | |||
1:16:02.679,1:16:06.579 | |||
was thinking about the difference | |||
1:16:03.699,1:16:08.550 | |||
between slate star codex and CNN in | |||
1:16:06.579,1:16:12.280 | |||
terms of sense making | |||
1:16:08.550,1:16:16.869 | |||
is there any way in which the etherium | |||
1:16:12.280,1:16:20.649 | |||
world can create a counterweight so that | |||
1:16:16.869,1:16:22.630 | |||
the neurodivergent can rest the | |||
1:16:20.649,1:16:25.840 | |||
stranglehold that seemingly the | |||
1:16:22.630,1:16:28.899 | |||
neurotypical institutional world seems | |||
1:16:25.840,1:16:32.229 | |||
to have on sense making it scale like is | |||
1:16:28.899,1:16:33.989 | |||
there a way of promoting another blog in | |||
1:16:32.229,1:16:37.149 | |||
this world would be like less wrong | |||
1:16:33.989,1:16:39.429 | |||
I | there particular thinkers that I think | ||
1:16:37.149,1:16:42.099 | |||
of as being very important influential I | |||
1:16:39.429,1:16:44.499 | |||
think you've given to our breda grey and | |||
1:16:42.099,1:16:47.139 | |||
Elliot sir you'd kasky there's like this | |||
1:16:44.499,1:16:51.280 | |||
very different world that isn't well | |||
1:16:47.139,1:16:53.050 | |||
known and in part I view podcasting is | |||
1:16:51.280,1:16:55.719 | |||
like pirate radio which is the phrase I | |||
1:16:53.050,1:16:58.929 | |||
keep your sum is that because you're | |||
1:16:55.719,1:17:02.439 | |||
Russian yes what can we do potentially | |||
1:16:58.929,1:17:05.139 | |||
using your technology to even the | |||
1:17:02.439,1:17:07.979 | |||
playing field between corporate | |||
1:17:05.139,1:17:10.360 | |||
sense-making and this kind of | |||
1:17:07.979,1:17:13.139 | |||
home-brewed sense making that seems to | |||
1:17:10.360,1:17:16.059 | |||
me to be of an infinitely superior level | |||
1:17:13.139,1:17:20.409 | |||
hmm well not infinitely but quite | |||
1:17:16.059,1:17:23.349 | |||
superior yeah so I think like once again | |||
1:17:20.409,1:17:26.889 | |||
there's kind of two aspects to kind of | |||
1:17:23.349,1:17:28.809 | |||
blockchain TM that I think are equally | |||
1:17:26.889,1:17:30.280 | |||
valuable here one is the technology | |||
1:17:28.809,1:17:32.199 | |||
itself and then the other is the | |||
1:17:30.280,1:17:35.469 | |||
existing community around the technology | |||
1:17:32.199,1:17:39.639 | |||
and I mean with the tech with the | |||
1:17:35.469,1:17:43.119 | |||
technology itself I mean you can try to | |||
1:17:39.639,1:17:43.600 | |||
like create and you know institutions | |||
1:17:43.119,1:17:47.050 | |||
for | |||
1:17:43.600,1:17:49.780 | |||
I | I could do even things like funding like | ||
1:17:47.050,1:17:51.640 | |||
podcasts for example and like even like | |||
1:17:49.780,1:17:53.380 | |||
things like this kind of get coin grants | |||
1:17:51.640,1:17:56.080 | |||
quadratic voting for example it would be | |||
1:17:53.380,1:17:58.120 | |||
a potentially a great way to kind of | |||
1:17:56.080,1:18:02.440 | |||
funds media organizations that avoids | |||
1:17:58.120,1:18:04.270 | |||
the pitfalls of both say a present-day | |||
1:18:02.440,1:18:06.190 | |||
media which is funded by some | |||
1:18:04.270,1:18:08.290 | |||
combination of battery of like | |||
1:18:06.190,1:18:10.420 | |||
advertising and horrible work made | |||
1:18:08.290,1:18:13.000 | |||
incentives and at the same time avoid | |||
1:18:10.420,1:18:15.160 | |||
the pitfalls of like basically sent | |||
1:18:13.000,1:18:18.460 | |||
accentually controlled media and create | |||
1:18:15.160,1:18:20.080 | |||
a third alternative so and like it | |||
1:18:18.460,1:18:22.750 | |||
doesn't even have to be quadratic voting | |||
1:18:20.080,1:18:24.610 | |||
it could be some other kind of mechanism | |||
1:18:22.750,1:18:26.980 | |||
for funding and blog chains could be | |||
1:18:24.610,1:18:30.880 | |||
used as a base layer for that there's | |||
1:18:26.980,1:18:36.130 | |||
also the end up watching community as a | |||
1:18:30.880,1:18:38.680 | |||
group of people who care about the many | |||
1:18:36.130,1:18:40.450 | |||
of these kinds of ideas and I mean even | |||
1:18:38.680,1:18:43.600 | |||
a lot of etherion people are definitely | |||
1:18:40.450,1:18:46.450 | |||
and some weight star codecs adjacent and | |||
1:18:43.600,1:18:49.480 | |||
then I feel like I have tried my best to | |||
1:18:46.450,1:18:52.120 | |||
kind of bring these worlds together and | |||
1:18:49.480,1:18:54.360 | |||
get them to talk to each other in means | |||
1:18:52.120,1:18:56.380 | |||
sometimes it is a challenge because | |||
1:18:54.360,1:18:58.270 | |||
there's ways in which they're similar | |||
1:18:56.380,1:19:02.140 | |||
and there's a lot of people who are in | |||
1:18:58.270,1:19:05.230 | |||
both and there's also ways in which | |||
1:19:02.140,1:19:07.030 | |||
they're sometimes different but those | |||
1:19:05.230,1:19:09.970 | |||
those differences can be a good thing | |||
1:19:07.030,1:19:11.950 | |||
yeah I guess I'm concerned that in our | |||
1:19:09.970,1:19:17.470 | |||
we were coming up on an election in the | |||
1:19:11.950,1:19:19.300 | |||
US and I view Fox News in the New York | |||
1:19:17.470,1:19:23.320 | |||
Times and CNN is like watching | |||
1:19:19.300,1:19:25.300 | |||
professional wrestling it's got a very | |||
1:19:23.320,1:19:28.630 | |||
clear narrative structure before the | |||
1:19:25.300,1:19:29.890 | |||
facts even come in yeah this is this is | |||
1:19:28.630,1:19:31.990 | |||
actually one of the things I've only | |||
1:19:29.890,1:19:36.540 | |||
really started noticing maybe in the | |||
1:19:31.990,1:19:39.190 | |||
last like one to two years I think it's | |||
1:19:36.540,1:19:41.230 | |||
narratives are something that like don't | |||
1:19:39.190,1:19:43.870 | |||
seem like you're there when you're fully | |||
1:19:41.230,1:19:47.200 | |||
inside of them but once you and have | |||
1:19:43.870,1:19:49.240 | |||
step outside and you start seeing that | |||
1:19:47.200,1:19:50.980 | |||
Nick wait these people are missing | |||
1:19:49.240,1:19:53.200 | |||
something and they're making predictions | |||
1:19:50.980,1:19:55.780 | |||
that turn out to be materially incorrect | |||
1:19:53.200,1:19:56.830 | |||
like yeah there's no memory like there's | |||
1:19:55.780,1:19:59.260 | |||
no cost | |||
1:19:56.830,1:20:01.750 | |||
yeah yeah you want to there's no | |||
1:19:59.260,1:20:04.420 | |||
accountability at all and it's something | |||
1:20:01.750,1:20:07.180 | |||
that you just actively start thinking | |||
1:20:04.420,1:20:11.730 | |||
seeking out how to move beyond yeah you | |||
1:20:07.180,1:20:15.940 | |||
know I think figuring out a better | |||
1:20:11.730,1:20:18.730 | |||
funding model for media organizations in | |||
1:20:15.940,1:20:21.010 | |||
general seems because in some ways what | |||
1:20:18.730,1:20:23.500 | |||
I'm concerned about is that something | |||
1:20:21.010,1:20:26.380 | |||
like podcasting is almost a public good | |||
1:20:23.500,1:20:28.630 | |||
and so that's probably a public good | |||
1:20:26.380,1:20:30.910 | |||
in | well I'm advertising in the one thing | ||
1:20:28.630,1:20:34.360 | |||
that right I keep I call it the business | |||
1:20:30.910,1:20:37.360 | |||
model of last resort yes and we are | |||
1:20:34.360,1:20:39.070 | |||
going with an ad-supported model because | |||
1:20:37.360,1:20:41.560 | |||
I don't want to disguise we were | |||
1:20:39.070,1:20:46.630 | |||
somebody offered to endow the podcast | |||
1:20:41.560,1:20:48.310 | |||
not not my employer and I decided | |||
1:20:46.630,1:20:50.170 | |||
against it because I think what I really | |||
1:20:48.310,1:20:52.690 | |||
want to do is to try to figure out how | |||
1:20:50.170,1:20:53.730 | |||
to improve the business model we've | |||
1:20:52.690,1:20:57.970 | |||
talked about a couple different | |||
1:20:53.730,1:21:01.210 | |||
variations on advertising in order to | |||
1:20:57.970,1:21:04.150 | |||
make sure that controversial but very | |||
1:21:01.210,1:21:06.010 | |||
sensible and level-headed people can | |||
1:21:04.150,1:21:08.620 | |||
weather the storm that the big problem | |||
1:21:06.010,1:21:11.620 | |||
that I keep seeing is that advertisers | |||
1:21:08.620,1:21:15.460 | |||
pull when there's a coordinated campaign | |||
1:21:11.620,1:21:19.570 | |||
to | to say drop that program or else yes and | ||
1:21:15.460,1:21:21.940 | |||
a | there's a a need for something like the | ||
1:21:19.570,1:21:24.850 | |||
blockchain or a smart contract to make | |||
1:21:21.940,1:21:27.520 | |||
sure that you can't silence people who | |||
1:21:24.850,1:21:29.890 | |||
are speaking decently just because | |||
1:21:27.520,1:21:33.460 | |||
they've pissed off a very large activist | |||
1:21:29.890,1:21:35.380 | |||
community right so do you see any way in | |||
1:21:33.460,1:21:38.170 | |||
which the blockchain for example like I | |||
1:21:35.380,1:21:40.930 | |||
might give up advertising if I could | |||
1:21:38.170,1:21:46.300 | |||
figure out a way to fund not only this | |||
1:21:40.930,1:21:49.290 | |||
program but allied programs so in 2011 | |||
1:21:46.300,1:21:52.180 | |||
when I was starting Bitcoin magazine I | |||
1:21:49.290,1:21:54.040 | |||
well it started off with like with this | |||
1:21:52.180,1:21:56.770 | |||
one anonymous person whose name I'll | |||
1:21:54.040,1:21:59.800 | |||
never know who aside from Kiba his | |||
1:21:56.770,1:22:02.050 | |||
internet handle and who was just paying | |||
1:21:59.800,1:22:03.970 | |||
me five Bitcoin which back then was $4 | |||
1:22:02.050,1:22:07.240 | |||
per article to write articles for him | |||
1:22:03.970,1:22:08.650 | |||
and I mean this was five times or lower | |||
1:22:07.240,1:22:09.910 | |||
I | than a minimum wage but I loved it | ||
1:22:08.650,1:22:10.660 | |||
because it was the higher highest wage | |||
1:22:09.910,1:22:15.250 | |||
I've ever had | |||
1:22:10.660,1:22:17.650 | |||
um and eventually despite paying me five | |||
1:22:15.250,1:22:20.260 | |||
times less than minimum wage at Kiba I | |||
1:22:17.650,1:22:22.830 | |||
ran out of money and like he's told me | |||
1:22:20.260,1:22:22.830 | |||
hey maybe | |||
'''(Last few minutes are missing)''' | |||