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'''Sam:''' Go wherever you want to go. This is your show.  
'''Sam:''' Go wherever you want to go. This is your show.  


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'''Sam:''' Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way.  
'''Sam:''' Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way.  


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'''Sam:''' No, no, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago. I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed for the worse and maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.  
'''Sam:''' No, no, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago. I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed for the worse and maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.  


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'''Sam:''' Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount, uh...
'''Sam:''' Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount, uh...


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'''Eric:''' I'm really tempted to call it... Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined.
'''Eric:''' I'm really tempted to call it... Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined.
   
   
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So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that The Times writes that I find absolutely - well, I'll go so far as to say - borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening.  
So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that The Times writes that I find absolutely - well, I'll go so far as to say - borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening.  


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'''Sam:''' I don't know if this, The Times is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, The Times and the Post and The Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well.  
'''Sam:''' I don't know if this, The Times is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, The Times and the Post and The Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well.  


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'''Sam:''' Well, I would argue that, you know, I'm fairly forgiving on that point because I feel that Trump has made the hiding of one's so-called bias irresponsible, essentially, it's like you, you can't, you can't pretend that this is a normal president doing normal things and you're going to be a normal journalist without an opinion.  
'''Sam:''' Well, I would argue that, you know, I'm fairly forgiving on that point because I feel that Trump has made the hiding of one's so-called bias irresponsible, essentially, it's like you, you can't, you can't pretend that this is a normal president doing normal things and you're going to be a normal journalist without an opinion.  


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'''Sam:''' Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time.
'''Sam:''' Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time.


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'''Eric:''' Yeah.  Probably, you know, physics and math are going to be the last to go, but I've even seen a little bit of inroads there. And so, I find the loss of Nature and Cell in the universities terrifying; different from The New York Times. Like, this is a few layers deeper and more dangerous. Do you not perceive that?
'''Eric:''' Yeah.  Probably, you know, physics and math are going to be the last to go, but I've even seen a little bit of inroads there. And so, I find the loss of Nature and Cell in the universities terrifying; different from The New York Times. Like, this is a few layers deeper and more dangerous. Do you not perceive that?


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'''Sam:''' Oh, I think it's just different problems. I don't know which is more consequential. I think the I think the failure to have a fact-based discussion and the incentives to avoid one, I think that's just the scariest thing we have going, apart from the true Monsters of Pandemic and Nuclear War and things like that.  
'''Sam:''' Oh, I think it's just different problems. I don't know which is more consequential. I think the I think the failure to have a fact-based discussion and the incentives to avoid one, I think that's just the scariest thing we have going, apart from the true Monsters of Pandemic and Nuclear War and things like that.  


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'''Eric:''' Well, I think we're trying to do harm to ourselves.  
'''Eric:''' Well, I think we're trying to do harm to ourselves.  


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'''Sam:''' Yeah except he's the doctor who doesn't know which bone he has in hand and, and a isn't actually intending to heal you.  
'''Sam:''' Yeah except he's the doctor who doesn't know which bone he has in hand and, and a isn't actually intending to heal you.  


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'''Sam:''' Do you think my model of his mind is wrong or my model of the consequences of him being in office is wrong?  
'''Sam:''' Do you think my model of his mind is wrong or my model of the consequences of him being in office is wrong?  


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'''Sam:''' Well, and some of this comes back to the hypocrisy point I was making before. So, I have that Trumpian module in my brain that feels just the pure schadenfreude of seeing Justin Trudeau get wholly cloistered on his own petard, right?  
'''Sam:''' Well, and some of this comes back to the hypocrisy point I was making before. So, I have that Trumpian module in my brain that feels just the pure schadenfreude of seeing Justin Trudeau get wholly cloistered on his own petard, right?  


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'''Sam:''' But for the most part the left was the political party that, I mean everyone was part of that same extractive economy, but the left at least paid lip service to the virtue of spreading the wealth around.
'''Sam:''' But for the most part the left was the political party that, I mean everyone was part of that same extractive economy, but the left at least paid lip service to the virtue of spreading the wealth around.


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'''Eric:''' Well, you know, there's this poem by Lewis Carroll about the walrus and the carpenter and in one of the Alice sagas, and they're both going to trick a bunch of oysters into following them and then eating the oysters. And one of them is quite clear about his desire to eat oysters. And the other one makes a big show of how sad it is that they played a little trick and all of them were eaten. And the key question is, which of these two figures is more reprehensible. And I always disliked the one who was terribly sad about what they'd done. And I think that's the left.
'''Eric:''' Well, you know, there's this poem by Lewis Carroll about the walrus and the carpenter and in one of the Alice sagas, and they're both going to trick a bunch of oysters into following them and then eating the oysters. And one of them is quite clear about his desire to eat oysters. And the other one makes a big show of how sad it is that they played a little trick and all of them were eaten. And the key question is, which of these two figures is more reprehensible. And I always disliked the one who was terribly sad about what they'd done. And I think that's the left.


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'''Sam:''' Yeah, there's something to that. But I think there's also all too common phenomenon of people motivated by actually good intentions, even incredibly noble intentions, causing a lot of chaos that they didn't intend, right? So, let me take...  
'''Sam:''' Yeah, there's something to that. But I think there's also all too common phenomenon of people motivated by actually good intentions, even incredibly noble intentions, causing a lot of chaos that they didn't intend, right? So, let me take...  


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'''Eric:''' I actually have some weird backstory on that one. So, I knew Samantha Power at the Kennedy School and she and I sat down, I mean, not well, I think we sat down at a meal and we had friends that connected us.  
'''Eric:''' I actually have some weird backstory on that one. So, I knew Samantha Power at the Kennedy School and she and I sat down, I mean, not well, I think we sat down at a meal and we had friends that connected us.  


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And a phrase came out, which was when they talked about reconceptualization, they said "It's a beautiful thing." And I realized that I had heard that phrase in New York, whenever people are up to no good, "It's a beautiful thing". It's a beautiful thing", you know, it's just, and so I then put out this thing in my group, which is, "did you notice that when people in New York do bad things to other people, they always say 'it's a beautiful thing'?". And sure enough, it caught in people's minds. Whenever anybody started to say it, they realized, "Oh my gosh, I'm in a part of my mind that recognizes that I can transfer wealth from somebody else to me largely without the other person knowing it in a way that results in benefit for me in some harm that's been externalized."  
And a phrase came out, which was when they talked about reconceptualization, they said "It's a beautiful thing." And I realized that I had heard that phrase in New York, whenever people are up to no good, "It's a beautiful thing". It's a beautiful thing", you know, it's just, and so I then put out this thing in my group, which is, "did you notice that when people in New York do bad things to other people, they always say 'it's a beautiful thing'?". And sure enough, it caught in people's minds. Whenever anybody started to say it, they realized, "Oh my gosh, I'm in a part of my mind that recognizes that I can transfer wealth from somebody else to me largely without the other person knowing it in a way that results in benefit for me in some harm that's been externalized."  


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'''Sam:''' Yeah. Well I think people are, you're not going to get me to disagree there that people are impressively split or at least can be. And I think a coherence generally speaking - or at least striving for it - is good. And I think, living an examined life in part as it is, is struggling with those discoveries of, of incoherence and figuring out how to get this congress of mind, as you call yourself, to actually cohere.
'''Sam:''' Yeah. Well I think people are, you're not going to get me to disagree there that people are impressively split or at least can be. And I think a coherence generally speaking - or at least striving for it - is good. And I think, living an examined life in part as it is, is struggling with those discoveries of, of incoherence and figuring out how to get this congress of mind, as you call yourself, to actually cohere.


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'''Sam:''' Yeah. No. So, but so, but when you're talking about the normal person who, I think it is a frequent phenomenon , to have, you know, normal, the normal range of good intentions to not be a sociopath, to want to help the world, to be in philanthropy, for instance, right. To actually to be this, I mean, you're already, if you're devoting your life, if you are, you know, a smart person who, you know, got a good degree, who could work more or less anywhere, but you decide to work for, for a charity, right? You're already an outlier. You're already somebody who said no to Wall Street or no to Hollywood or no to something, and now you're working for the, you know, the Southern Poverty Law Center or something like, you want to just stop racism, right? So, you're already one of the good guys, right?  
'''Sam:''' Yeah. No. So, but so, but when you're talking about the normal person who, I think it is a frequent phenomenon , to have, you know, normal, the normal range of good intentions to not be a sociopath, to want to help the world, to be in philanthropy, for instance, right. To actually to be this, I mean, you're already, if you're devoting your life, if you are, you know, a smart person who, you know, got a good degree, who could work more or less anywhere, but you decide to work for, for a charity, right? You're already an outlier. You're already somebody who said no to Wall Street or no to Hollywood or no to something, and now you're working for the, you know, the Southern Poverty Law Center or something like, you want to just stop racism, right? So, you're already one of the good guys, right?  


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'''Eric:''' Well, let's be, let's put a finer point on it. They are now more likely to let the genie out of the bottle because of their bad behavior or to, you know, huff and puff on an ember that is the pathetic Ku Klux Klan of 2019 -  
'''Eric:''' Well, let's be, let's put a finer point on it. They are now more likely to let the genie out of the bottle because of their bad behavior or to, you know, huff and puff on an ember that is the pathetic Ku Klux Klan of 2019 -  


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'''Eric:''' That is the thing that has metastasized throughout our institutional structure. And so, it's not the Southern Poverty Law Center. I mean, that's particularly egregious, but the entire university system, every single measure you can take on that thing, looks like an intergenerational wealth transfer right down to the nondischargeability of student debt in bankruptcy, the loading up of every university by administrators, and the monopolization - at the moment, almost 100% of our leading institutions are run by a baby boomer whereas the average age, in a different era of a university president, we could have most of them under Gen X control and some of them under millennial control. There were university presidents in their thirties who had a huge impact. I mean, that is a system which has gone totally metastatic.
'''Eric:''' That is the thing that has metastasized throughout our institutional structure. And so, it's not the Southern Poverty Law Center. I mean, that's particularly egregious, but the entire university system, every single measure you can take on that thing, looks like an intergenerational wealth transfer right down to the nondischargeability of student debt in bankruptcy, the loading up of every university by administrators, and the monopolization - at the moment, almost 100% of our leading institutions are run by a baby boomer whereas the average age, in a different era of a university president, we could have most of them under Gen X control and some of them under millennial control. There were university presidents in their thirties who had a huge impact. I mean, that is a system which has gone totally metastatic.


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'''Sam:''' Yeah, yeah. Well that may be an outlier. I mean -
'''Sam:''' Yeah, yeah. Well that may be an outlier. I mean -


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'''Eric:''' It's the worst large system of its kind.
'''Eric:''' It's the worst large system of its kind.


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'''Sam:''' Yeah. I mean, the way costs have gone up there, you know, way outpacing inflation.  
'''Sam:''' Yeah. I mean, the way costs have gone up there, you know, way outpacing inflation.  


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'''Eric:''' Well, and it's colonizing things outside of itself. I mean the problem with — journalism, tech, human resources, anything which is a high leverage, but often poorly paid for the level of intelligence usually required or the amount of training usually required, becomes attractive. So there's a perverse incentive when you can't pay journalists or scientists or even technologists at appropriate levels. I know people will scream, and say "oh you have no idea how much money tech people get paid." And I really don't believe it. I think that those jobs are supposed to be even better compensated because of large scale tampering in the sector.  
'''Eric:''' Well, and it's colonizing things outside of itself. I mean the problem with — journalism, tech, human resources, anything which is a high leverage, but often poorly paid for the level of intelligence usually required or the amount of training usually required, becomes attractive. So there's a perverse incentive when you can't pay journalists or scientists or even technologists at appropriate levels. I know people will scream, and say "oh you have no idea how much money tech people get paid." And I really don't believe it. I think that those jobs are supposed to be even better compensated because of large scale tampering in the sector.  


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'''Sam:''' But we have a hand in this, so we can tune the landscape, right?  
'''Sam:''' But we have a hand in this, so we can tune the landscape, right?  


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'''Eric:''' Sam, I think we've screwed up a lot worse than you're imagining in the past. And that that is the fodder for the twin evils of Trumpism and Wokeism.
'''Eric:''' Sam, I think we've screwed up a lot worse than you're imagining in the past. And that that is the fodder for the twin evils of Trumpism and Wokeism.


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'''Sam:''' But just, just grant me the, the possible sea change effect of the 3000 people, the right 3000 people, fundamentally getting their head straight on these issues or any issue, right. Whatever it is. So, you're talking about basically all of Hollywood, all of journalism, and all of the science that's public facing.  
'''Sam:''' But just, just grant me the, the possible sea change effect of the 3000 people, the right 3000 people, fundamentally getting their head straight on these issues or any issue, right. Whatever it is. So, you're talking about basically all of Hollywood, all of journalism, and all of the science that's public facing.  


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'''Eric:''' I find that that's an interesting heuristic for somebody as —  
'''Eric:''' I find that that's an interesting heuristic for somebody as —  


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'''Sam:''' Yeah. I mean, I just, he was someone who I didn't want to spend any more time with because he had this sort of schlocky rich guy...  
'''Sam:''' Yeah. I mean, I just, he was someone who I didn't want to spend any more time with because he had this sort of schlocky rich guy...  


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'''Eric:''' Where he's talking about his Lamborghini all the time.
'''Eric:''' Where he's talking about his Lamborghini all the time.


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'''Sam:''' Exactly, you've, you know, you've bored me already. But I had no more insight into him than that.
'''Sam:''' Exactly, you've, you know, you've bored me already. But I had no more insight into him than that.


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'''Eric:''' From one meeting I've been I've been talking about him for 15 years.
'''Eric:''' From one meeting I've been I've been talking about him for 15 years.


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'''Sam:''' And I think I, one detail I'd like to add here, in defense of the many people, and the many scientists, who are in this guy's orbit and who didn't know how unseemly his life actually was, some of these young women who you'd meet in his company were not just, you know, bimbos or strippers or that some of these people were going to medical school and there's like, these were like smart young women.
'''Sam:''' And I think I, one detail I'd like to add here, in defense of the many people, and the many scientists, who are in this guy's orbit and who didn't know how unseemly his life actually was, some of these young women who you'd meet in his company were not just, you know, bimbos or strippers or that some of these people were going to medical school and there's like, these were like smart young women.


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'''Eric:''' Well, and adult — no, no, this is incredibly important distinction and I don't think that the news media has done a good job of teasing out. It's very attached to the idea of Pedophile Island and Lolita Express. And that lazy, sensationalist journalism is crowding something out, which is that in general from what I understand, so, I met him in 2000- I think 2004, maybe 2003 but before his Florida incarceration and charges, most people that I knew who met him met him with young adult women. And so, my theory is that he was constructed to be the sapiosexual Hugh Hefner.  
'''Eric:''' Well, and adult — no, no, this is incredibly important distinction and I don't think that the news media has done a good job of teasing out. It's very attached to the idea of Pedophile Island and Lolita Express. And that lazy, sensationalist journalism is crowding something out, which is that in general from what I understand, so, I met him in 2000- I think 2004, maybe 2003 but before his Florida incarceration and charges, most people that I knew who met him met him with young adult women. And so, my theory is that he was constructed to be the sapiosexual Hugh Hefner.  


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'''Sam:''' There's just, it's a completely different thing is it's very easy to see that if you've seen this guy be sort of the womanizing schmuck, right within the bounds of, you know, total legality and he's surrounded by 20 year olds and you know, he's got a 40 year...  
'''Sam:''' There's just, it's a completely different thing is it's very easy to see that if you've seen this guy be sort of the womanizing schmuck, right within the bounds of, you know, total legality and he's surrounded by 20 year olds and you know, he's got a 40 year...  


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'''Eric:''' That is not a fair defense after the Florida situation, the Florida situation changes that structure.
'''Eric:''' That is not a fair defense after the Florida situation, the Florida situation changes that structure.


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'''Sam:''' You mean his prosecution or Miami Herald thing that came out like a year ago?  
'''Sam:''' You mean his prosecution or Miami Herald thing that came out like a year ago?  


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'''Eric:''' No, no, no, the prosecution.  
'''Eric:''' No, no, no, the prosecution.  


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'''Sam:''' Hmm. Well, I dunno about that. I mean, I think the relative penury of science is a corrupting variable and the fact that we underfund science and that it matters that when the rich guy comes into the room, right to scientists because they're so starved for money, that's just corrupting.
'''Sam:''' Hmm. Well, I dunno about that. I mean, I think the relative penury of science is a corrupting variable and the fact that we underfund science and that it matters that when the rich guy comes into the room, right to scientists because they're so starved for money, that's just corrupting.


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'''Eric:''' Look, this is, I've been on this, this is going to get us into the immigration question, which is that the - in the mid-eighties, under Reagan, the science complex, particularly the National Science Foundation under Eric Block, through the National Academy of Sciences and a subdivision called the Government University Industry Research Roundtable, GUIRR, are conspired to destroy the bargaining power of American scientists by flooding the market. And what they did is they did an economic analysis with both supply and demand curves to say that the wages, which you can calculate when you have two intersecting curves, were going to go above six figures for new PhDs. And then -
'''Eric:''' Look, this is, I've been on this, this is going to get us into the immigration question, which is that the - in the mid-eighties, under Reagan, the science complex, particularly the National Science Foundation under Eric Block, through the National Academy of Sciences and a subdivision called the Government University Industry Research Roundtable, GUIRR, are conspired to destroy the bargaining power of American scientists by flooding the market. And what they did is they did an economic analysis with both supply and demand curves to say that the wages, which you can calculate when you have two intersecting curves, were going to go above six figures for new PhDs. And then -


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'''Sam:''' But how is that distinguishable from what on his face seems to me to be a rational policy, which is why not try to attract the world's best and brightest and incentivize them to start their businesses here, settle here, you know what, once you've gotten your PhD at Harvard, you know, you, you've got a green card and you know, here's your, here's the Silicon Valley's over there. You know what I mean? So why when ...
'''Sam:''' But how is that distinguishable from what on his face seems to me to be a rational policy, which is why not try to attract the world's best and brightest and incentivize them to start their businesses here, settle here, you know what, once you've gotten your PhD at Harvard, you know, you, you've got a green card and you know, here's your, here's the Silicon Valley's over there. You know what I mean? So why when ...


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'''Eric:''' When you start speaking I feel like I'm hearing the Stars and Stripes Forever, I've got one hand over my heart, and the Statue of Liberty is in the background with Emma Lazarus' poem at the base. Do you actually believe that?
'''Eric:''' When you start speaking I feel like I'm hearing the Stars and Stripes Forever, I've got one hand over my heart, and the Statue of Liberty is in the background with Emma Lazarus' poem at the base. Do you actually believe that?


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'''Sam:''' No, but no, but no, my, my point is that strikes me as a good policy, even though that would create more competition for, you know, so-called Americans —  
'''Sam:''' No, but no, but no, my, my point is that strikes me as a good policy, even though that would create more competition for, you know, so-called Americans —  


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'''Eric:''' I mean, so it's a very weird thing for me that people who are very steeped in what you were just talking about, which is this interesting mimetic complex that got pushed out, don't tend to think critically about it. Of course, we want the best people in the world to come to the U.S., selfishly.  
'''Eric:''' I mean, so it's a very weird thing for me that people who are very steeped in what you were just talking about, which is this interesting mimetic complex that got pushed out, don't tend to think critically about it. Of course, we want the best people in the world to come to the U.S., selfishly.  


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'''Eric:'''            There's a giant structure below it called the Moorhouse Rectangle, which is what is transferred from labor to capital.  
'''Eric:'''            There's a giant structure below it called the Moorhouse Rectangle, which is what is transferred from labor to capital.  


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'''Eric:'''           That is the thing that caused the system to have to rescue itself with immigration. So, it's really not about immigration or brown people or I don't want to compete against the best and the prizes. It, the issue was we didn't have enough people to feed into a pyramid system. And what you could do is you could, you could reference a poverty differential between Asia, which was training people acceptably well in technical subjects, but had it at a lower level, now that's changed some to fill in the bottom of the pyramid. And so that's really what it was. It was an economic X point that has nothing to do with the best and the brightest or the color of one's skin. It was just a way of saving a pyramid scheme.
 
'''Eric:''' That is the thing that caused the system to have to rescue itself with immigration. So, it's really not about immigration or brown people or I don't want to compete against the best and the prizes. It, the issue was we didn't have enough people to feed into a pyramid system. And what you could do is you could, you could reference a poverty differential between Asia, which was training people acceptably well in technical subjects, but had it at a lower level, now that's changed some to fill in the bottom of the pyramid. And so that's really what it was. It was an economic X point that has nothing to do with the best and the brightest or the color of one's skin. It was just a way of saving a pyramid scheme.


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01:08:40
'''Sam:'''               Well, I, so clearly there is room for innovation on all these fronts and we should be eager to do it. And we should be certainly eager to find Ponzi schemes that we didn't know were Ponzi schemes. Right? Like I think it's, eh, we again, this touches where we started when we were talking about Samantha Power and other and the Southern Poverty Law Center. I think there, there are systems we set up with the best of intentions and you know, projects and, and meme, you know, mimetic complexes. We launch you know, upon the world with the best of intentions and we don't see the way incentives will align or the, or the, you know, the knock-on effects or the externalities of, of doing those things. And then it's just the world is more complicated than we realized.
 
'''Sam:''' Well, I, so clearly there is room for innovation on all these fronts and we should be eager to do it. And we should be certainly eager to find Ponzi schemes that we didn't know were Ponzi schemes. Right? Like I think it's, eh, we again, this touches where we started when we were talking about Samantha Power and other and the Southern Poverty Law Center. I think there, there are systems we set up with the best of intentions and you know, projects and, and meme, you know, mimetic complexes. We launch you know, upon the world with the best of intentions and we don't see the way incentives will align or the, or the, you know, the knock-on effects or the externalities of, of doing those things. And then it's just the world is more complicated than we realized.


01:09:29
01:09:29
'''Eric:'''            And that's what was, so that's like the thing that scares me a little bit. Remember when I said that I have malware in my head? My belief is, is that a lot of the beautiful things that you were thinking about, about being open to the world, training the best and the brightest, keeping some of them for ourselves, distributing some of them back home to grow the pie for everyone, et cetera, et cetera. That's a mimetic complex that I, I associate with malware. It's not that there aren't aspects of it, it wasn't movement, right?


'''Sam:'''         01:09:54      I think it's close to the right program. So for instance, like if you say, yeah, it's, it's the fact that I'm not thinking when I say that about the I forget how you put it, but the, the, the, the difference between the local case and the imported case, right? You know, the but by analogy, you know, opening the window on the airplane. Or just the fact that you know that you've got people here who are paying taxes to help build out local infrastructure that some, then some titan of industry is going to leverage and globalize. Right? And you know that money is not coming back to the people who are paying taxes.
'''Eric:''' And that's what was, so that's like the thing that scares me a little bit. Remember when I said that I have malware in my head? My belief is, is that a lot of the beautiful things that you were thinking about, about being open to the world, training the best and the brightest, keeping some of them for ourselves, distributing some of them back home to grow the pie for everyone, et cetera, et cetera. That's a mimetic complex that I, I associate with malware. It's not that there aren't aspects of it, it wasn't movement, right?


'''Eric:'''    01:10:38      These games. The totality of these games is what got us very angry at the Clinton era. People. Yeah. This is the, the, the Brad Delong's and Paul Krugman’s and Jagdish Bhagwati's and Bill Clinton's of the world. All of these people pushed out this idea and we didn't know how to, how to oppose it. But what they were doing was allowing a slice of our country to continue to grow its slices of the pie.
01:09:54


'''Sam:'''         01:11:09      But again, it's, it's just easy to find non nefarious, not malignantly selfish understanding of what happened. I'll give you another example, which, which I think is you're totally familiar with but will seem less sinister or at least it seems so to me. So, you take what happened to the music industry, right? So, it's like we have a, a breakthrough in technology. We go from vinyl to CDs and then, those, you know, we, we suffer those jewel cases for about a decade and then we get PMP3s which opened the door to piracy of a sort which no one has anticipated. And then we managed to close down the piracy. We have the, you know, the iTunes store and people are but because of this, this explosion of piracy and now the prospect of, of, of just, you know, now it's all bits, it's not atoms anymore.
'''Sam:''' I think it's close to the right program. So for instance, like if you say, yeah, it's, it's the fact that I'm not thinking when I say that about the I forget how you put it, but the, the, the, the difference between the local case and the imported case, right? You know, the but by analogy, you know, opening the window on the airplane. Or just the fact that you know that you've got people here who are paying taxes to help build out local infrastructure that some, then some titan of industry is going to leverage and globalize. Right? And you know that money is not coming back to the people who are paying taxes.


'''Sam:'''        01:12:08      We have a, just a fundamental devaluation of the product. Right? Like the music, the music, the value of the music has basically gone to zero. Right. because my, my using a copy of it is not, is not taking it from you.
01:10:38


'''Eric:''' Because of two things, its exhausted ability and exclude ability.  
'''Eric:'''           These games. The totality of these games is what got us very angry at the Clinton era. People. Yeah. This is the, the, the Brad Delong's and Paul Krugman’s and Jagdish Bhagwati's and Bill Clinton's of the world. All of these people pushed out this idea and we didn't know how to, how to oppose it. But what they were doing was allowing a slice of our country to continue to grow its slices of the pie.


'''Sam:'''  Right.  
01:11:09
 
'''Sam:''' But again, it's, it's just easy to find non nefarious, not malignantly selfish understanding of what happened. I'll give you another example, which, which I think is you're totally familiar with but will seem less sinister or at least it seems so to me. So, you take what happened to the music industry, right? So, it's like we have a, a breakthrough in technology. We go from vinyl to CDs and then, those, you know, we, we suffer those jewel cases for about a decade and then we get PMP3s which opened the door to piracy of a sort which no one has anticipated. And then we managed to close down the piracy. We have the, you know, the iTunes store and people are but because of this, this explosion of piracy and now the prospect of, of, of just, you know, now it's all bits, it's not atoms anymore.
 
01:12:08
 
'''Sam:''' We have a, just a fundamental devaluation of the product. Right? Like the music, the music, the value of the music has basically gone to zero. Right. because my, my using a copy of it is not, is not taking it from you.
 
'''Eric:''' Because of two things, its exhausted ability and exclude ability.
 
'''Sam:''' Right.  


'''Eric:''' The idea is that if I buy a vinyl record, 1) my use of it will eventually wear down the grooves.  
'''Eric:''' The idea is that if I buy a vinyl record, 1) my use of it will eventually wear down the grooves.  


'''Sam:''' Exactly.  
'''Sam:''' Exactly.  


'''Eric:''' As it to do in the old days and 2) my having the record means that you don't have that car.  
'''Eric:''' As it to do in the old days and 2) my having the record means that you don't have that car.  


'''Sam:''' I have to borrow it.  
'''Sam:''' I have to borrow it.  


'''Eric:'''  And that the, the per the unit costs is not zero.  
'''Eric:'''  And that the, the per the unit costs is not zero.  
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'''Sam:''' But again, so, so what you had in your sites was not, you can't, I don't think you're, you're, you're the wrong theory of mind if you think everyone was aware of what you were aware of and just had the say, the ethical switch flipped in the other direction.
'''Sam:''' But again, so, so what you had in your sites was not, you can't, I don't think you're, you're, you're the wrong theory of mind if you think everyone was aware of what you were aware of and just had the say, the ethical switch flipped in the other direction.


'''Eric:'''     01:14:23      Ok. The class, the economic class teaches public goods in every Econ 101 textbook, right? They also teach trade. They have two different names for what happens to improve a society. In terms of how it's measured, one called Pareto improvement, which is that everybody in the society is as good or better off. And the other one called Kaldor-Hicks, which is, some people get hurt, some people get helped. But were you to tax the winners to pay the losers everyone could be Pareto improved. Okay. When you ask these people in real time, why are you talking about a Kaldor-Hicks improvement in Pareto terms? So, this is the technical, esoteric conversation. Why is your exoteric description of this at odds with your esoteric, alright, this is pure Straussian cryptic bullshit. They said, well, we can't really say that and we hope that somebody, it's not our job, it was this wall of total nonsense. And it wasn't that this wasn't being said in real time. But the number of people...
01:14:23
 
'''Eric:''' Ok. The class, the economic class teaches public goods in every Econ 101 textbook, right? They also teach trade. They have two different names for what happens to improve a society. In terms of how it's measured, one called Pareto improvement, which is that everybody in the society is as good or better off. And the other one called Kaldor-Hicks, which is, some people get hurt, some people get helped. But were you to tax the winners to pay the losers everyone could be Pareto improved. Okay. When you ask these people in real time, why are you talking about a Kaldor-Hicks improvement in Pareto terms? So, this is the technical, esoteric conversation. Why is your exoteric description of this at odds with your esoteric, alright, this is pure Straussian cryptic bullshit. They said, well, we can't really say that and we hope that somebody, it's not our job, it was this wall of total nonsense. And it wasn't that this wasn't being said in real time. But the number of people...
 
01:15:35


'''Sam:'''         01:15:35      Well, I'm sure you can find the people at the conference who were, I mean it's, you know, they, they have, they have one way of speaking to the profession. And one way of speaking on the op-ed pages in New York Times.  
'''Sam:''' Well, I'm sure you can find the people at the conference who were, I mean it's, you know, they, they have, they have one way of speaking to the profession. And one way of speaking on the op-ed pages in New York Times.  


'''Eric:''' This is one of the reasons why you and I split on Nassim Taleb. I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Nassim during the total nonsense called the great moderation in our financial structure right before 2008, right.  
'''Eric:''' This is one of the reasons why you and I split on Nassim Taleb. I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Nassim during the total nonsense called the great moderation in our financial structure right before 2008, right.  


'''Sam:'''  And the only reason why I split on Nassim is that he just wakes up one morning and you know, off his meds and attacks me for reasons I can never fathom. So, it's like, it's totally personal. Like, or it's intended to be personal. It's not that I take it personally. I mean, I actually,  
'''Sam:'''  And the only reason why I split on Nassim is that he just wakes up one morning and you know, off his meds and attacks me for reasons I can never fathom. So, it's like, it's totally personal. Like, or it's intended to be personal. It's not that I take it personally. I mean, I actually,  
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'''Sam:'''  There's no intellectual content.
'''Sam:'''  There's no intellectual content.


'''Eric:'''    01:16:33       When it says Nassim Nicholas Taleb, he's been my friend for a long time. I literally shake like I have to hit. Right?
01:16:33


'''Sam:'''         01:16:41      Right. Okay. But that's a problem of his personality that he's exporting to the environment. You're part of the environment.
'''Eric:''' When it says Nassim Nicholas Taleb, he's been my friend for a long time. I literally shake like I have to hit. Right?


'''Eric:'''    01:16:47      Look, Nassim is not an inside cat. He just isn't. I see the things he does and I get, I get a lump in my throat and I think, am I going to have to defend this? I know I know what he does, but I think people don't understand him, so at least let me offer up a, an apology for, for Nassim Taleb, which he may rip my head off for saying. Nassim is constructed around things that are much larger than what other people are considering and I don't, I'm not saying that he does everything well. I obviously have a totally different tack than he does, so I'm very uncomfortable with his methods, but let's at least say what they are and steel man to the extent possible. Other people say you, you, you, Joe are misusing statistics. Nassim would say there's a problem with statistics. Yeah. And it's constructed to be misused and it's misused all the time in the same way. And if you do anything that you were normally taught to do in statistics class, if you have a PhD in statistics, you're part of the problem. And I'm going to hold you personally responsible right now. This is very disconcerting to people. Yeah.
01:16:41


'''Sam:'''         01:17:57      And so, I mean, I, I don't think we should spend a lot of time on this, but there, there are areas where I am not qualified to fact check him. The areas where I am, where he gives opinions are just as strident, it's just a deluge of bullshit coming from him. So, like he, you know, the stuff he has said about religion and science is not even, I mean, the truth is it's not even wrong. It's like it's, it's, it's incoherent. It's not like he's got a, a counterpoint that I still think is wrong, but you know, it has to be argued against. It's just this vomitus.
'''Sam:''' Right. Okay. But that's a problem of his personality that he's exporting to the environment. You're part of the environment.


'''Eric:'''    01:18:32      I've gotten there too. I can't stand the style cause it just hurts me. Like I just, I, I'm very uncomfortable by it. However, there are plenty of times when I thought he was talking nonsense that like, at first it sounds like he's making a sensible objection. Then I'm just like convinced this as he's going off the rails and then I push further and it turns out there's even more of a point. So I have learned to be very cautious around him, not because he's the person you want around for most of the time, but when we were in the middle of the great moderation and I, I punked out cause I was, I was with him and I was giving talks about Epstein and Madoff, it was at the two mysterious functions in New York. And I used to put slides up about black arts capital. It was sort of a play on like Blackstone or BlackRock.
01:16:47


'''Eric:'''     01:19:23       And the idea is we'd tell you what we're doing, but we'd have to kill you.  
'''Eric:''' Look, Nassim is not an inside cat. He just isn't. I see the things he does and I get, I get a lump in my throat and I think, am I going to have to defend this? I know I know what he does, but I think people don't understand him, so at least let me offer up a, an apology for, for Nassim Taleb, which he may rip my head off for saying. Nassim is constructed around things that are much larger than what other people are considering and I don't, I'm not saying that he does everything well. I obviously have a totally different tack than he does, so I'm very uncomfortable with his methods, but let's at least say what they are and steel man to the extent possible. Other people say you, you, you, Joe are misusing statistics. Nassim would say there's a problem with statistics. Yeah. And it's constructed to be misused and it's misused all the time in the same way. And if you do anything that you were normally taught to do in statistics class, if you have a PhD in statistics, you're part of the problem. And I'm going to hold you personally responsible right now. This is very disconcerting to people. Yeah.
 
01:17:57
 
'''Sam:''' And so, I mean, I, I don't think we should spend a lot of time on this, but there, there are areas where I am not qualified to fact check him. The areas where I am, where he gives opinions are just as strident, it's just a deluge of bullshit coming from him. So, like he, you know, the stuff he has said about religion and science is not even, I mean, the truth is it's not even wrong. It's like it's, it's, it's incoherent. It's not like he's got a, a counterpoint that I still think is wrong, but you know, it has to be argued against. It's just this vomitus.
 
01:18:32
 
'''Eric:''' I've gotten there too. I can't stand the style cause it just hurts me. Like I just, I, I'm very uncomfortable by it. However, there are plenty of times when I thought he was talking nonsense that like, at first it sounds like he's making a sensible objection. Then I'm just like convinced this as he's going off the rails and then I push further and it turns out there's even more of a point. So I have learned to be very cautious around him, not because he's the person you want around for most of the time, but when we were in the middle of the great moderation and I, I punked out cause I was, I was with him and I was giving talks about Epstein and Madoff, it was at the two mysterious functions in New York. And I used to put slides up about black arts capital. It was sort of a play on like Blackstone or BlackRock.
 
01:19:23
 
'''Eric:''' And the idea is we'd tell you what we're doing, but we'd have to kill you.  


'''Sam:'''  Right.
'''Sam:'''  Right.
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'''Eric:'''  But I knew Epstein was very likely to be something totally other than he was. Nassim during this period of time that we were both discussing the nonsense. That was the suppose great moderation, was the other guy who would take as much punishment as the community would throw at him and then would just humiliate him. It's like, Oh, he made one lucky trade in 1987 the guy's an idiot. He's a blowhard. He's a fool. And I couldn't take the pressure from giving this talk that obviously we hadn't banished volatility. And I think around 2005, I was about three years in and Nassim says, you know, you're going to regret getting out of this early.
'''Eric:'''  But I knew Epstein was very likely to be something totally other than he was. Nassim during this period of time that we were both discussing the nonsense. That was the suppose great moderation, was the other guy who would take as much punishment as the community would throw at him and then would just humiliate him. It's like, Oh, he made one lucky trade in 1987 the guy's an idiot. He's a blowhard. He's a fool. And I couldn't take the pressure from giving this talk that obviously we hadn't banished volatility. And I think around 2005, I was about three years in and Nassim says, you know, you're going to regret getting out of this early.


'''Eric:'''     01:20:15      You should see it through. And it always stuck with me that I didn't quite have the courage or the strength or the guts or the disagreability to continue, at least to hold the intellectual position. I couldn't time when this thing was going to blow, but it was, you know, I wrote this thing on mortgage backed securities with Adil, Abdullah Ali in 2001. This was nonsense. And it was a world in which almost no one was willing to call it out. And so, the singularity in my, in my world about Nassim has to do with he, he's willing to be one person against billions. He will, he will literally just stand up against any crowd.  
01:20:15
 
'''Eric:''' You should see it through. And it always stuck with me that I didn't quite have the courage or the strength or the guts or the disagreability to continue, at least to hold the intellectual position. I couldn't time when this thing was going to blow, but it was, you know, I wrote this thing on mortgage backed securities with Adil, Abdullah Ali in 2001. This was nonsense. And it was a world in which almost no one was willing to call it out. And so, the singularity in my, in my world about Nassim has to do with he, he's willing to be one person against billions. He will, he will literally just stand up against any crowd.  
 
01:20:58


'''Sam:'''         01:20:58    Okay, well, so that's, that's often a bug. And you found the one case perhaps where it was a feature, but it's a, I mean, first of all, we're all like that to some degree. I mean, we were, we're all standing up, right?  
'''Sam:''' Okay, well, so that's, that's often a bug. And you found the one case perhaps where it was a feature, but it's a, I mean, first of all, we're all like that to some degree. I mean, we were, we're all standing up, right?  


'''Eric:''' It's very hard for me.
'''Eric:''' It's very hard for me.
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'''Sam:'''  Yeah, occasionally. But it's, it's, there is a kind, I mean, again, I'm a, not to psychoanalyze him, but there's this, there's a sort of Trumpian level personality problem layered on top of his intellect where, I'm not disputing the guy is smart, he's a, there's no question, he's smart, but there's just, there's so much personality to get through and wrangle with, to interact with whatever, whatever smarts are showing up for depending on the topic. And again, with some topics, you know, I haven't found the smarts, but I'm not disputing that.
'''Sam:'''  Yeah, occasionally. But it's, it's, there is a kind, I mean, again, I'm a, not to psychoanalyze him, but there's this, there's a sort of Trumpian level personality problem layered on top of his intellect where, I'm not disputing the guy is smart, he's a, there's no question, he's smart, but there's just, there's so much personality to get through and wrangle with, to interact with whatever, whatever smarts are showing up for depending on the topic. And again, with some topics, you know, I haven't found the smarts, but I'm not disputing that.


'''Sam:'''         01:21:47      The guy, obviously he's intelligent, is just, he's so, there's no one more enamored of his intelligence than him. Right. And it's just, it's like that level of egocentricity. Again, it has a kind of Trumpian, you know, peacock fan, a quality to it. And in in the cases where it's warranted, it's still extra and it's bullshit and it's annoying when it's unwarranted, it's embarrassing and he has zero sense of where he is on, on that landscape.  
01:21:47
 
'''Sam:''' The guy, obviously he's intelligent, is just, he's so, there's no one more enamored of his intelligence than him. Right. And it's just, it's like that level of egocentricity. Again, it has a kind of Trumpian, you know, peacock fan, a quality to it. And in in the cases where it's warranted, it's still extra and it's bullshit and it's annoying when it's unwarranted, it's embarrassing and he has zero sense of where he is on, on that landscape.  


'''Eric:'''  I hear what you're saying. I do have the sense of the number of floorboards that I can hide under when the storm troopers come from me, a very few and far between that I can count on and I can count on his.  
'''Eric:'''  I hear what you're saying. I do have the sense of the number of floorboards that I can hide under when the storm troopers come from me, a very few and far between that I can count on and I can count on his.  
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