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11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends: Difference between revisions
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'''Sam:''' 00:01:42 Whatever you want to go. This is your show. | '''Sam:''' 00:01:42 Whatever you want to go. This is your show. | ||
'''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence, slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually, um, filling the voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence? | '''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And, um, I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence, slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually, um, filling the voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence? | ||
'''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it. | '''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent, uh, or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it. | ||
'''Eric:''' You gotta be kidding! This - this has never happened | '''Eric:''' You gotta be kidding me! This - this has never happened! | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:03:00 Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way. | '''Sam:''' 00:03:00 Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way. | ||
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'''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general... | '''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general... | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:03:21 No, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment. | '''Sam:''' 00:03:21 No, no, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and, uh, it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment. | ||
Eric: Well, so what I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting, because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth. | Eric: Well, so what I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting, because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. | ||
For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth. | |||
'''Sam:''' 00:04:09 Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount... | '''Sam:''' 00:04:09 Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount, uh... | ||
'''Eric''' I've been watching you transition. | '''Eric''' I've been watching you transition. | ||
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'''Eric''' That's new. | '''Eric''' That's new. | ||
'''Sam''' Yeah, yeah. | '''Sam''' Yeah, yeah. | ||
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'''Sam''' But something has changed. So it's this - is this worse than the '80s? | '''Sam''' But something has changed. So it's this - is this worse than the '80s? | ||
'''Eric''' It's a good question. Depends. Worse isn't the right word, in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that its problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism. And the first clear indication I have of this, I think, was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter.. | '''Eric''' It's a good question. Depends. Worse isn't the right word, in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that its problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism. And the first clear indication I have of this, I think, was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter... | ||
'''Sam''' | '''Sam''' H-how old are you? You're not that much older than me. (laughter) | ||
'''Eric''' I'm 53, sir. | '''Eric''' I'm 53, sir. | ||
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'''Sam''' We're talking '69? or, something like that? | '''Sam''' We're talking '69? or, something like that? | ||
'''Eric''' Yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading - I will clarify - I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent, who was sent to cover Woodstock by The Times, being told, 'Write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness...' | '''Eric''' Yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading - I will clarify - I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent, who was sent to cover Woodstock by The Times, being told, 'Write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness, and...' | ||
'''Sam''' (laughter) Strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, at one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60's for myself. | '''Sam''' (laughter) Strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, at one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60's for myself. | ||
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'''Sam''' So I'm not getting really... | '''Sam''' So I'm not getting really... | ||
'''Eric:''' 00:06:17 | '''Eric:''' 00:06:17 I'm really tempted to call it... Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined. | ||
'''Sam''' Okay. | '''Sam''' Okay. | ||
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'''Sam''' And I have have cholera (laughter) | '''Sam''' And I have have cholera (laughter) | ||
'''Eric''' And I have cholera. So I think that the narrative aspect of The New York Times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor | '''Eric''' And I have cholera. So I think that the narrative aspect of The New York Times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor - the editorial function at The Times. And that those are written in some sense before the facts are known. And so the facts are then fit to the narratives. And then when the counter-narratives occur, The Times really either doesn't report the story as is, and they really couldn't handle the-the situation that happened with my brother because it was exactly counter-narrative or then they distort based on the idea that they need to push things back into the narrative. | ||
'''Eric:''' 00:07:24 So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that The Times writes that I find absolutely - | '''Eric:''' 00:07:24 So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that The Times writes that I find absolutely - well, I'll go so far as to say - borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening. | ||
'''Sam''' Mmm | '''Sam''' Mmm | ||
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'''Eric''' What do you make of it? | '''Eric''' What do you make of it? | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:08:08 I don't know if this | '''Sam:''' 00:08:08 I don't know if this, The Times is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, The Times and the Post and The Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well. | ||
'''Eric''' Trump is saving their business. | '''Eric''' Trump is saving their business. | ||
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'''Eric''' Sure. But again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere, and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, like, the Office of Management and Budget or something or... | '''Eric''' Sure. But again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere, and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, like, the Office of Management and Budget or something or... | ||
'''Sam''' But it's not what I'm saying to be bad about journalism in general | '''Sam''' But it's not what I'm saying to be bad about journalism in general is that what you think of as the institution. I mean, just like the veneer, the front-facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is apparently non-existent. I mean, so like, you know, people used to think Salon was real journalism or with The Guardian. I mean, The Guardian has like kind of the blog side and The Guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well.. | ||
'''Eric''' ...and you find the same people on Twitter. | '''Eric''' ...and you find the same people on Twitter. | ||
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'''Eric:''' 00:12:01 Why? Because apparently according to my household, I am consuming their product at an alarming rate. In particular, I love the coffee and I love the tea that they make as well as the lattes and the hot chocolate products. All of these things do not taste like mushrooms. They taste like whatever these guys have been able to blend the mushrooms into. In fact, it's an incredible experience for me that I can now finally participate as an adult in a food group that I was always fenced out of previously. Please look into them. Go to foursigmatic.com/portal or use the discount code, P-O-R-T-A-L at checkout, that's foursigmatic.com/portal and I think you'll be very pleased with your purchase. Try it. It's certainly working for me. Foursigmatic.Com/Portal | '''Eric:''' 00:12:01 Why? Because apparently according to my household, I am consuming their product at an alarming rate. In particular, I love the coffee and I love the tea that they make as well as the lattes and the hot chocolate products. All of these things do not taste like mushrooms. They taste like whatever these guys have been able to blend the mushrooms into. In fact, it's an incredible experience for me that I can now finally participate as an adult in a food group that I was always fenced out of previously. Please look into them. Go to foursigmatic.com/portal or use the discount code, P-O-R-T-A-L at checkout, that's foursigmatic.com/portal and I think you'll be very pleased with your purchase. Try it. It's certainly working for me. Foursigmatic.Com/Portal | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:12:50 Well, I would argue that, you know, I'm fairly forgiving on that point because I feel that Trump has made the hiding of one's so-called bias irresponsible, essentially it's like you, you can't, you can't pretend that this is a normal president doing normal things | '''Sam:''' 00:12:50 Well, I would argue that, you know, I'm fairly forgiving on that point because I feel that Trump has made the hiding of one's so-called bias irresponsible, essentially, it's like you, you can't, you can't pretend that this is a normal president doing normal things and you're going to be a normal journalist without an opinion. | ||
'''Eric''' Well, I agree with that. Although I would say you and I are very split on this, so put a placeholder | '''Eric''' Well, I agree with that. Although I would say you and I are very split on this, so put a placeholder, maybe we'll get back to it | ||
'''Sam''' Sure | '''Sam''' Sure | ||
'''Eric''' | '''Eric''' Maybe not. I'm more worried about the loss of things like Nature and Science than I am The New York Times. I'm now worried that there is nothing, and even in the hard sciences almost that can stand up to the onslaught of political pressure creeping in to everything that has to be able to say no, that we've lost the ability to tell people to screw off if they're wrong. | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:13:49 Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time. | '''Sam:''' 00:13:49 Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time. | ||
'''Eric:''' 00:13:57 Yeah. Probably, you know, physics and math are going to be the last to go, but I've even seen a little bit of inroads there. And so I find the loss of, of Nature and Cell in the universities terrifying | '''Eric:''' 00:13:57 Yeah. Probably, you know, physics and math are going to be the last to go, but I've even seen a little bit of inroads there. And so I find the loss of, of Nature and Cell in the universities terrifying; different from The New York Times. Like this is, this is a few layers deeper and more dangerous. Do you not perceive that? | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:14:22 Oh, I think it's just different problems. I don't know which is more consequential. I think the I think the failure to have a fact-based discussion and the incentives to avoid one, I think that's just the scariest thing we have going apart from the true Monsters of Pandemic and Nuclear War and things like that. | '''Sam:''' 00:14:22 Oh, I think it's just different problems. I don't know which is more consequential. I think the I think the failure to have a fact-based discussion and the incentives to avoid one, I think that's just the scariest thing we have going apart from the true Monsters of Pandemic and Nuclear War and things like that. | ||
'''Eric''' Well, those are now increasingly relative with the, you know, vaxxer or anti-vaxxer you know, controversy, but the self-refereeing, like one of the things that's really important to have a decent discussion, in my opinion, is that you have to agree what a discussion is and what constitutes an illegal move. And increasingly I feel like we're having these combat sports where we can't agree on what rules - like is biting an ear part of boxing? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Who's to say | '''Eric''' Well, those are now increasingly relative with the, you know, vaxxer or anti-vaxxer you know, controversy, but the self-refereeing, like one of the things that's really important to have a decent discussion, in my opinion, is that you have to agree what a discussion is and what constitutes an illegal move. And increasingly I feel like we're having these combat sports where we can't agree on what rules - like is biting an ear part of boxing? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Who's to say? Well, that's an imposition of your views on mine. Who can still self-adjudicate? | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:15:27 Well I think if you wait long enough, you see the failures of hypocrisy, right? You see people try to enshrine a new set of rules that prove unworkable in some of the context, you know, or, or they, they just can't live up to them because of... it's impossible. I mean, we're now noticing, and it's been widely observed that more or less, if you wait around long enough, everyone's going to get canceled. You know, it's like the repurposing of the Warhol quote, you know, we'll all be canceled for 15 minutes at some point. | '''Sam:''' 00:15:27 Well I think if you wait long enough, you see the failures of hypocrisy, right? You see people try to enshrine a new set of rules that prove unworkable in some of the context, you know, or, or they, they just can't live up to them because of... it's impossible. I mean, we're now noticing, and it's been widely observed that more or less, if you wait around long enough, everyone's going to get canceled. You know, it's like the repurposing of the Warhol quote, you know, we'll all be canceled for 15 minutes at some point. | ||
'''Eric''' laughter | '''Eric''' (laughter) "fifteen minutes"! | ||
And so, just before we started this podcast, we were joking that, you know, Justin Trudeau has yet another black face photo of himself apparently appearing online. And here's, you know, one of the most woke and sanctimonious enforcers of this new norm of just political correctness you know, stretching to infinity and he's, he's got not only (laughter) black face in his past, but a apparently a positive passion for blackface. | '''Sam''' And so, just before we started this podcast, we were joking that, you know, Justin Trudeau has yet another black face photo of himself apparently appearing online. And here's, you know, one of the most woke and sanctimonious enforcers of this new norm of just political correctness you know, stretching to infinity and he's, he's got not only (laughter) black face in his past, but a apparently a positive passion for blackface. | ||
That's a recurring issue. | '''Eric''' That's a recurring issue. | ||
So it's, it's I mean the hypocrisy is, is so delicious, but it's just, it's just the yeah, the, these, these new norms of not being honest about facts just can't scale. I mean there | So it's, it's I mean the hypocrisy is, is so delicious, but it's just, it's just the yeah, the, these, these new norms of not being honest about facts just can't scale. I mean there, people will, people will be tripped up by them and so, and it's not, so you can, we can't do a lot of harm to ourselves in the meantime or in certain, | ||
'''Eric:''' 00:17:10 Well, I think we're trying to do harm to ourselves. | '''Eric:''' 00:17:10 Well, I think we're trying to do harm to ourselves. | ||
Yeah. | '''Sam''' Yeah. | ||
I think that the idea, yeah. Sometimes I think about Trump as the doctor who has to break a bone that has miss been | '''Eric''' I think that the idea, yeah. Sometimes I think about Trump as the doctor who has to break a bone that has miss - has been mis-set in the hopes that it can finally heal properly. And this is one of the places where you are... | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:17:28 | '''Sam:''' 00:17:28 Yeah except he's the doctor who doesn't know which bone he has in hand and, and a isn't actually intending to heal you. So it's the happy accident of the doctor who happens, the mad man who happens to have a hold of the right femur and a is breaking it for the wrong reasons, but to good effect. | ||
'''Eric:''' 00:17:44 Right. Or you know, is it | '''Eric:''' 00:17:44 Right. Or you know, is it doctored in folklore and from some non-accredited. | ||
I'm so sorry to keep | |||
'''Sam''' I'm so sorry to keep segueing on you, but I know you have a passion for India. I remember once traveling in India and seeing somebody's - a doctor's - it was actually a dentist shingle and it was saying you know "Western-trained Dentist" and in parentheses 'failed'. But, but having, just having just made the attempt was enough to put that on the, on the shingle. | |||
Oh, that's good. I mean, that does. | '''Eric''' (laughter) Oh, that's good. I mean, that does. | ||
So I think you get Trump wrong, right? And it's not, I see what you see and it's maddening. It's driving me crazy. The idea of spending four more precious years of my dwindling life, talking about whatever Trump less said or tweeted or worried that I don't know what would happen if we actually had a five alarm fire in the U S that had to be handled. | '''Eric''' So I think you get Trump wrong, right? And it's not, I see what you see and it's maddening. It's driving me crazy. The idea of spending four more precious years of my dwindling life, talking about whatever Trump less said or tweeted or worried that I don't know what would happen if we actually had a five alarm fire in the U S that had to be handled. | ||
''' | '''Sam:''' 00:18:45 Do you think my model of his mind is wrong or my model of the consequences of, of him being in office is wrong. | ||
Well, I think that you were slow to give him his due. I mean, of course, as you know, I wrote this essay on kayfabe, um, anticipating that professional wrestling was going to turn out to be incredibly important. And in fact, I thought it was going to determine the presidency that was a a belief I had that understanding how lies play within the mind and how hypocrisy work and then a concept called namespaces out of Python programming and the like how we compartmentalize led me to believe that in essence we were, I had seen these other candidacies and other countries in which people seem not to be able to distinguish an actor from the character that they played, you know, whatnot. | '''Eric''' Well, I think that you were slow to give him his due. I mean, of course, as you know, I wrote this essay on kayfabe, um, anticipating that professional wrestling was going to turn out to be incredibly important. And in fact, I thought it was going to determine the presidency - that was a, a belief I had that understanding how lies play within the mind and how hypocrisy work and then a concept called namespaces out of Python programming and the like how we compartmentalize led me to believe that in essence we were, I had seen these other candidacies and other countries in which people seem not to be able to distinguish an actor from the character that they played, you know, whatnot. | ||
And so I, I believed that the system of laws within professional wrestling told us what was possible. And Trump actually sort of came out of the WWE through his association with, with the McMahon family. | And so I, I believed that the system of laws within professional wrestling told us what was possible. And Trump actually sort of came out of the WWE through his association with, with the McMahon family. | ||
Yep | '''Sam''' Yep | ||
'''Eric''' And I believe that he actually understood deep things that psychology departments will wake up to 20 years from now. | |||
'''Sam''' Yeah, I guess, let me just suggest I've suggested by analogy to the Chauncey Gardner effect, or the evil Chauncey Gardner effect. | |||
'''Eric''' Well, but that's wrong. | |||
'''Sam''' Yeah, I think, I think, but it's hard to know that could happen. I mean, it's, it's definitely falsifiable. My theory is falsifiable. He could prove to me with a string of utterances that he's the evil genius that I haven't imagined him to be, but he hasn't done that. | |||
'''Eric''' I bet if you and I had a couple of old-fashioneds between us and we sat down with a a thousand of his tweets, we could figure out that they're recurrent structures and we could write an Eliza program to generate them to, to tangle Democrats. I think that there's much more method to the madness. And I, I don't have to go full Scott Adams (Scott, I know you're out there somewhere) to, to say that everything is intentional and brilliant. I just think he's got a, you know, it was for years. I said that if you wanted to win an election against a Democrat, you just would talk about the nuclear family, let them correct you to nuclear, and then you'd win because you'd come across as an ass. | |||
'''Sam''' Right, exactly. | |||
'''Eric''' So I think that there is a certain amount of method that you were slow to give, give him credit for. But I think you're probably inching towards the idea that if he's not an evil genius, he has some evil genius. | |||
'''Sam''' I think it's just, again, I, I'm enamored of my Chauncey Gardner analogy. | |||
'''Eric''' All right. | |||
'''Sam''' Well here's another analogy that that is even simpler and a more easy, easier to confirm. It's clear there's a method, but I think it's just a very simple method that the power of which is an accident of the context. So it's like an Instagram model has a method, right? You know, they just, if you have a great body, show it to great effect on your Instagram channel and then wait around for people to follow you. Right? So there's a very simple formula. There's no question it works. It's, there's not a lot of method to it. | |||
'''Eric''' But in the rallies that he likes, the rallies are a feedback mechanism. | |||
'''Sam''' Right | |||
'''Eric''' So he knows, he knows that the feedback that he's getting from the press in general has a constant distortion. And so by holding a rally, he can figure out to some ext..... I mean, it's like constant AB test. | |||
'''Sam''' But it doesn't have the fact that he wasn't canceled for one of his sins. | |||
'''Eric''' He was! | |||
He | '''Sam''' No, but the fact that the fact that there's enough, there are enough people to insulate... He has enough fans of this style of, of communication and, and living that he's, he's uncancelable. Right? | ||
'''Sam''' The fact that we have 40%, | |||
he's cancelled | '''Eric''' No he's cancelled. | ||
'''Sam''' No, no. We have 40% of the American population that fundamentally does not care about any of the things I care about in him. | |||
I disagree with this, Sam, I think you're getting this wrong. This is what I think might be interesting. I'm happy to be. | '''Eric''' I disagree with this, Sam, I think you're getting this wrong. This is what I think might be interesting. I'm happy to be. | ||
Okay. | Sam Okay. | ||
I'm happy to be wrong to you. So you think that at what point, are we wrong | I'm happy to be wrong to you. So you think that at what point, are we wrong | ||
I think we're still in the stage of being so angry at bill Clintonism. | Eric I think we're still in the stage of being so angry at bill Clintonism. | ||
Yeah. | Yeah. | ||