12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine
Transcript
Unedited Transcript
0:00:05.899,0:00:13.440 okay well just just you know it's a good
0:00:11.280,0:00:16.080 question so the idea is that the the
0:00:13.440,0:00:18.380 dimensionality coincidence is that in
0:00:16.080,0:00:20.939 the the dimension of the floating planes
0:00:18.380,0:00:23.309 will always be the dimension of the base
0:00:20.939,0:00:26.820 space alone
0:00:23.309,0:00:30.779 so imagine we're doing this in a hundred
0:00:26.820,0:00:35.960 dimensions and the base space were 72
0:00:30.779,0:00:40.140 dimensions and the fiber was 28
0:00:35.960,0:00:42.090 dimensions right it would be a seventy
0:00:40.140,0:00:44.420 to seventy two dimensional floating
0:00:42.090,0:00:44.420 plane
0:00:45.200,0:00:48.200 okay
0:00:48.350,0:00:52.840 any other questions along those lines
0:00:50.510,0:00:59.620 yeah I got one right
0:00:52.840,0:01:03.400 okay just just short once if say you
0:00:59.620,0:01:06.070 attach circular fibers to something do
0:01:03.400,0:01:07.960 they have a size or shape or does it
0:01:06.070,0:01:09.780 just is it just important that they're
0:01:07.960,0:01:12.280 cyclical like wooden ellipse our
0:01:09.780,0:01:15.220 Directorate substitution
0:01:12.280,0:01:18.040 yeah I like that a lot here's the big
0:01:15.220,0:01:22.180 problem with metric geometry versus
0:01:18.040,0:01:23.670 topology you were born into a world with
0:01:22.180,0:01:26.070 metric
0:01:23.670,0:01:28.979 and as a result it's very hard to
0:01:26.070,0:01:30.630 imagine things that don't have metrics
0:01:28.979,0:01:33.509 because every time you visualize
0:01:30.630,0:01:36.030 something you're seeing it inside of the
0:01:33.509,0:01:40.440 world that your brain knows which has a
0:01:36.030,0:01:45.799 size consideration so sometimes I say
0:01:40.440,0:01:50.490 imagine that you've got intensities four
0:01:45.799,0:01:53.790 degree of flavor so say take sweet salty
0:01:50.490,0:01:56.820 sour and bitter right
0:01:53.790,0:02:00.120 those are four dimensions four degrees
0:01:56.820,0:02:03.000 of freedom and you're asked a question
0:02:00.120,0:02:06.360 well is that more bitter than that other
0:02:03.000,0:02:08.610 thing was sour that that starts to put
0:02:06.360,0:02:11.100 you in a difficult spot you don't really
0:02:08.610,0:02:13.260 know how to say something is seven worth
0:02:11.100,0:02:16.050 of sour versus seven worth of bitter
0:02:13.260,0:02:22.470 versus seven worth of salt or seven
0:02:16.050,0:02:25.530 worth of sweet furthermore is his sweet
0:02:22.470,0:02:27.390 are sweet and sour to one person kind of
0:02:25.530,0:02:29.700 similar things that's why sweet and sour
0:02:27.390,0:02:31.200 works or does it really work because
0:02:29.700,0:02:34.110 they're opposite or it doesn't really
0:02:31.200,0:02:35.790 work because they really have almost
0:02:34.110,0:02:39.230 nothing to do with each other and it's
0:02:35.790,0:02:42.240 just two complementary sensations
0:02:39.230,0:02:46.370 different people might argue that the
0:02:42.240,0:02:50.370 angle between sweet and sour is
0:02:46.370,0:02:53.040 different it's acute it's obtuse it's
0:02:50.370,0:02:55.980 it's orthogonal so that's an indication
0:02:53.040,0:02:58.370 that in the four dimensional space of
0:02:55.980,0:02:58.370 taste
0:02:58.950,0:03:06.470 with those with those taste buds
0:03:01.410,0:03:06.470 there is no metric on that space
0:03:07.430,0:03:14.359 so when you have a fiber bundle there is
0:03:10.640,0:03:16.640 not necessarily a metric on the fibers
0:03:14.359,0:03:19.220 or the base space you're really when all
0:03:16.640,0:03:22.040 you have is a fiber bundle
0:03:19.220,0:03:25.460 you really are the category of
0:03:22.040,0:03:28.010 differential topology usually not
0:03:25.460,0:03:30.020 differential geometry or romani in
0:03:28.010,0:03:33.980 geometry where you would have length and
0:03:30.020,0:03:37.100 angle so in terms of circumference or
0:03:33.980,0:03:39.680 size or volume or all of these things in
0:03:37.100,0:03:41.360 general you have to learn how to forget
0:03:39.680,0:03:43.640 that those things are present so
0:03:41.360,0:03:45.950 sometimes I'll have a plane and I'm
0:03:43.640,0:03:48.740 visualizing it but I have to make a note
0:03:45.950,0:03:51.140 of myself the length and angle I have
0:03:48.740,0:03:54.470 when I'm visualizing has not been
0:03:51.140,0:03:57.260 supplied yet in the problem so we call
0:03:54.470,0:03:59.030 this the forgetful functor you know like
0:03:57.260,0:04:00.830 just forget that there is a length and
0:03:59.030,0:04:02.840 angle that you're able to see because
0:04:00.830,0:04:09.250 that's not specified in the problem I
0:04:02.840,0:04:14.209 hope that's helpful so is that like a
0:04:09.250,0:04:16.970 constructional tool it's not an actual
0:04:14.209,0:04:19.250 thing so like um
0:04:16.970,0:04:22.520 a construction line and of drawing it's
0:04:19.250,0:04:24.410 not meant to actually be a part of the
0:04:22.520,0:04:28.400 drawing it's meant to help you construct
0:04:24.410,0:04:30.860 a drawing well is the problem with the
0:04:28.400,0:04:33.080 problem with using visuals which I I'm
0:04:30.860,0:04:35.120 I'm trying to use visuals because I
0:04:33.080,0:04:37.070 believe it's the way in which the most
0:04:35.120,0:04:39.290 number of people who thought they sucked
0:04:37.070,0:04:42.680 at math will be able to understand
0:04:39.290,0:04:44.180 what's going on that there are some
0:04:42.680,0:04:48.770 downsides and I think it's a great
0:04:44.180,0:04:51.830 opportunity to start talking about the
0:04:48.770,0:04:56.170 great downside is well one of them is
0:04:51.830,0:04:58.610 that you become too dependent on the
0:04:56.170,0:05:02.270 artifact of the fact you're able to see
0:04:58.610,0:05:05.600 something for example let's imagine that
0:05:02.270,0:05:09.800 you have a sheet of paper that's square
0:05:05.600,0:05:12.680 and you agree that if you go off the
0:05:09.800,0:05:16.910 left side of that square you come
0:05:12.680,0:05:19.160 through the right in in a made-up world
0:05:16.910,0:05:21.380 and if you go out the top you come back
0:05:19.160,0:05:23.740 through the bottom doing the penguin
0:05:21.380,0:05:27.430 anything yeah you do it the pac-man or
0:05:23.740,0:05:30.140 asteroids if you're of a certain age
0:05:27.430,0:05:32.000 you're really playing on a tourist
0:05:30.140,0:05:33.919 you're really playing on a donut because
0:05:32.000,0:05:36.169 if you were to fold the left and the
0:05:33.919,0:05:37.729 right together and attach them you'd get
0:05:36.169,0:05:40.310 a cylinder and then if you attach the
0:05:37.729,0:05:42.860 top to the bottom you'd get it too so
0:05:40.310,0:05:45.830 all that time when you were playing in
0:05:42.860,0:05:47.810 the arcade you were actually playing on
0:05:45.830,0:05:49.960 a donut you just didn't think about it
0:05:47.810,0:05:49.960 because
0:05:50.300,0:05:54.860 it wasn't specified as a doughnut it was
0:05:53.030,0:05:58.220 specified as go out the left come
0:05:54.860,0:06:02.690 through the right so this is the globe
0:05:58.220,0:06:05.090 how some people make the flat map of the
0:06:02.690,0:06:08.180 globe and then you have like an actual
0:06:05.090,0:06:09.830 three-dimensional round globe well I I
0:06:08.180,0:06:12.400 don't want to get into issues of
0:06:09.830,0:06:15.260 distortion and map making because you're
0:06:12.400,0:06:17.870 ignoring all that it's that kind of idea
0:06:15.260,0:06:19.910 how how on the three-dimensional globe
0:06:17.870,0:06:21.680 you're going all the way around let me
0:06:19.910,0:06:25.250 get to the point of why I brought up
0:06:21.680,0:06:28.070 this this thing about the torus in three
0:06:25.250,0:06:31.790 dimensions if you have a torus the torus
0:06:28.070,0:06:34.310 is always curved but literally when you
0:06:31.790,0:06:35.630 have that square and you specify going
0:06:34.310,0:06:37.040 out the left coming through the right
0:06:35.630,0:06:40.880 and going at the top coming through the
0:06:37.040,0:06:43.220 bottom you really specified a flat torus
0:06:40.880,0:06:45.080 there is a flat metric on the torus with
0:06:43.220,0:06:49.970 no curvature it just doesn't sit in
0:06:45.080,0:06:52.900 three dimension so for example I have to
0:06:49.970,0:06:55.960 remember that when I picture a doughnut
0:06:52.900,0:06:57.800 tasty as it may be it's always
0:06:55.960,0:07:00.200 distorting the fact that the most
0:06:57.800,0:07:05.750 natural metric to put on that thing as
0:07:00.200,0:07:08.890 is is a flat one ergo you have to learn
0:07:05.750,0:07:08.890 how to adjust
0:07:09.930,0:07:14.970 the visual input for the mathematical
0:07:13.110,0:07:17.570 reality that may be masking or
0:07:14.970,0:07:17.570 distorting
0:07:21.150,0:07:27.540 so one more thing I wanted to sort of
0:07:25.080,0:07:31.580 ask the other day I was making that
0:07:27.540,0:07:33.930 javascript thing with the like the
0:07:31.580,0:07:40.009 crappy copy of what you demonstrated the
0:07:33.930,0:07:43.039 other day well this is our NH
0:07:40.009,0:07:45.050 I can't find you I'm so bad at
0:07:43.039,0:07:46.500 navigating this goddamn second one
0:07:45.050,0:07:49.410 second
0:07:46.500,0:07:54.590 I'm looking for you where am i like
0:07:49.410,0:07:57.390 aaron age okay keep going here in h so
0:07:54.590,0:08:00.750 just when I finish this and and and
0:07:57.390,0:08:02.430 plotting it all I so inside that it's
0:08:00.750,0:08:05.310 it's just can't be tried it's it's just
0:08:02.430,0:08:07.290 it's visually similar but there's no
0:08:05.310,0:08:09.630 Maps involved so don't don't look into
0:08:07.290,0:08:11.940 it very deeply but when I was doing that
0:08:09.630,0:08:15.690 I realized hey I've I've seen this
0:08:11.940,0:08:17.910 before you said you hadn't and I'm just
0:08:15.690,0:08:20.720 wondering if you've had any interest in
0:08:17.910,0:08:20.720 albatrosses
0:08:21.520,0:08:28.849 well are you familiar with albatross
0:08:25.759,0:08:30.559 I'm familiar with Coleridge's Rime of
0:08:28.849,0:08:35.380 the Ancient Mariner and I'm familiar
0:08:30.559,0:08:37.820 with the cover of Michael civics
0:08:35.380,0:08:39.949 differential geometry book where he is
0:08:37.820,0:08:42.589 saddled without albatrosses evoking
0:08:39.949,0:08:45.750 Coleridge
0:08:42.589,0:08:48.350 that might be what I'm about to talk
0:08:45.750,0:08:51.449 about so for everyone else is listening
0:08:48.350,0:08:54.480 so if you go to the beach you often see
0:08:51.449,0:08:57.690 like seabirds eagles and seagulls sort
0:08:54.480,0:09:01.470 of Ridge soaring so they'll they'll sit
0:08:57.690,0:09:03.930 on near a hill and there'll be a draft
0:09:01.470,0:09:05.550 of upward moving air and they will float
0:09:03.930,0:09:08.490 in that and so they're sort of falling
0:09:05.550,0:09:12.029 gliding in at the same rate that the air
0:09:08.490,0:09:13.769 is going up and and people can do that
0:09:12.029,0:09:15.329 they can paraglide and things but
0:09:13.769,0:09:18.029 albatrosses are different they seem to
0:09:15.329,0:09:21.690 have unlimited endurance so they can fly
0:09:18.029,0:09:24.509 forever without flapping at all and this
0:09:21.690,0:09:27.509 is they sort of found out that they can
0:09:24.509,0:09:30.360 use the boundary layer effect so
0:09:27.509,0:09:33.120 there'll be a wind across the ocean at
0:09:30.360,0:09:34.709 the ocean sort of ocean level there'll
0:09:33.120,0:09:38.750 be zero wind and up higher there'll be a
0:09:34.709,0:09:42.180 lot more and they sort of dive in to
0:09:38.750,0:09:43.829 dive into the wind and they have a huge
0:09:42.180,0:09:46.199 headwind which gives them a lot of lift
0:09:43.829,0:09:47.819 which lifts them up and then once
0:09:46.199,0:09:51.240 they're up in the air they'll dive away
0:09:47.819,0:09:53.009 from the wind which gives them speed so
0:09:51.240,0:09:54.990 the next time they dive into the wind
0:09:53.009,0:09:58.139 they've got a more of a headwind and
0:09:54.990,0:10:01.790 this is it feels like exactly the same
0:09:58.139,0:10:01.790 sort of penrose stairs that
0:10:02.110,0:10:06.040 any energy that they have been sort of
0:10:03.760,0:10:09.100 doing this arbitrage between the higher
0:10:06.040,0:10:11.470 and lower wind speeds near the ocean you
0:10:09.100,0:10:14.800 know it's a very nice example it may
0:10:11.470,0:10:17.800 actually be tight it may not be an
0:10:14.800,0:10:21.100 analogy so for example perhaps what
0:10:17.800,0:10:25.870 you've just told me is that updrafts are
0:10:21.100,0:10:28.240 a naturally occurring concept of a
0:10:25.870,0:10:30.700 horizontal subspace that is not
0:10:28.240,0:10:33.850 horizontal in the standard way in other
0:10:30.700,0:10:37.870 words what is horizontal relative to a
0:10:33.850,0:10:40.980 wind Blair is different than what is
0:10:37.870,0:10:44.820 horizontal with respect to the horizon
0:10:40.980,0:10:46.589 and in so doing you have an arbitrage
0:10:44.820,0:10:50.519 between two different notions of
0:10:46.589,0:10:52.410 horizontal and that would be very much
0:10:50.519,0:10:55.529 that would be very much the same thing
0:10:52.410,0:10:57.750 as I was saying that one person's salary
0:10:55.529,0:11:00.050 was constant purchasing power the other
0:10:57.750,0:11:02.190 person's salary was constant dollars
0:11:00.050,0:11:04.199 that's two different notions of
0:11:02.190,0:11:07.470 constancy maybe you just said told me
0:11:04.199,0:11:10.139 the same thing about wind layers that
0:11:07.470,0:11:14.420 that's actually a fiber bundle in the
0:11:10.139,0:11:14.420 making not an analogy I don't know
0:11:15.300,0:11:22.330 great yeah I've been I can see birds
0:11:19.120,0:11:24.640 from here from my window so I've been
0:11:22.330,0:11:28.810 observing them and the exact same sort
0:11:24.640,0:11:32.740 of cyclic up and down sort of with very
0:11:28.810,0:11:35.530 ingredients so in your visualization was
0:11:32.740,0:11:37.570 there any was that anything particular
0:11:35.530,0:11:40.420 or was that just a random no no we said
0:11:37.570,0:11:43.990 of angles it's actually the
0:11:40.420,0:11:46.270 visualization I mean I'll just tell you
0:11:43.990,0:11:49.150 late night people are you European and
0:11:46.270,0:11:50.650 oceanic people and Asian people what it
0:11:49.150,0:11:54.730 really was and then we can talk about
0:11:50.650,0:11:58.540 with the larger group another point if
0:11:54.730,0:12:02.380 you do the economic problem naively with
0:11:58.540,0:12:06.510 two goods say chicken and beef sold in
0:12:02.380,0:12:06.510 pounds or kilograms rather
0:12:06.620,0:12:12.390 you get too many dimensions to visualize
0:12:09.450,0:12:14.220 so you have two dimensions of good two
0:12:12.390,0:12:16.880 dimensions of price so that's four
0:12:14.220,0:12:20.340 dimensions and then if you want to do
0:12:16.880,0:12:22.530 price or goods again like either GDP or
0:12:20.340,0:12:24.720 inflation you have two additional
0:12:22.530,0:12:27.960 dimensions so you have get six six
0:12:24.720,0:12:29.910 dimensions overall so six dimensions
0:12:27.960,0:12:31.350 isn't gonna work in our visual cortex so
0:12:29.910,0:12:34.980 I worked hard to think how could I
0:12:31.350,0:12:37.530 decrease the cognitive load and I said
0:12:34.980,0:12:40.140 oh if I take the ratio of chicken to
0:12:37.530,0:12:41.820 beef purchased and the ratio of the
0:12:40.140,0:12:45.030 prices which is what tells me what a
0:12:41.820,0:12:50.570 barter is so whether chicken and beef
0:12:45.030,0:12:53.310 are two and three dollars a kilogram or
0:12:50.570,0:12:56.370 twenty and thirty dollars a kilogram it
0:12:53.310,0:12:59.240 doesn't affect what a barter is so in
0:12:56.370,0:13:01.890 the base space I put the ratios of
0:12:59.240,0:13:04.680 amount of chicken to amount of beef and
0:13:01.890,0:13:06.360 price of chicken to price of beef but
0:13:04.680,0:13:08.690 then since I actually wanted to track
0:13:06.360,0:13:09.949 how much
0:13:08.690,0:13:14.089 [Music]
0:13:09.949,0:13:16.369 the basket was growing I then put one of
0:13:14.089,0:13:20.250 the two components like chicken let's
0:13:16.369,0:13:23.650 say as the vertical in the fiber
0:13:20.250,0:13:26.380 so effectively what that was was was
0:13:23.650,0:13:28.630 measuring either GDP or inflation and
0:13:26.380,0:13:33.370 upon which kind of system but let's do
0:13:28.630,0:13:35.740 GDP now I've snuck both the ratio of
0:13:33.370,0:13:39.340 chicken to be purchased as well as the
0:13:35.740,0:13:41.620 total amount of say beef so therefore I
0:13:39.340,0:13:44.200 can back out the total amount of chicken
0:13:41.620,0:13:46.540 as well so now I've got a three
0:13:44.200,0:13:49.210 dimensional system because I'm only
0:13:46.540,0:13:52.870 using the price information that tells
0:13:49.210,0:13:56.040 me what a barter is and those loops
0:13:52.870,0:13:58.030 would be an example of going around a
0:13:56.040,0:14:02.040 system
0:13:58.030,0:14:02.040 that will that gave you constant
0:14:02.250,0:14:07.990 constant GDP and yet when you came back
0:14:06.160,0:14:10.060 around you were actually producing more
0:14:07.990,0:14:13.390 than you had previously so that's sort
0:14:10.060,0:14:17.290 of an economic paradox how can you be
0:14:13.390,0:14:18.700 constantly changing your GDP only by
0:14:17.290,0:14:20.620 barters therefore it's never getting
0:14:18.700,0:14:24.280 bigger or smaller but when you come back
0:14:20.620,0:14:26.140 you're actually producing ten percent
0:14:24.280,0:14:28.420 more than you were in the exact same
0:14:26.140,0:14:28.900 proportion of goods so that's where it
0:14:28.420,0:14:31.840 came from
0:14:28.900,0:14:34.810 and by the way so impressed was I with
0:14:31.840,0:14:36.610 your albatross example that I will
0:14:34.810,0:14:37.600 unlock an Easter egg how many of you
0:14:36.610,0:14:40.180 know that The Rime of the Ancient
0:14:37.600,0:14:42.360 Mariner is set to the tune of Gilligan's
0:14:40.180,0:14:42.360 Island
0:14:42.930,0:14:49.820 I don't actually know things except that
0:14:46.920,0:14:52.950 it's a poem by Coleridge's it man yeah
0:14:49.820,0:14:55.800 there is an Ancient Mariner and he
0:14:52.950,0:14:57.750 stopped with one of three bye they long
0:14:55.800,0:15:02.520 gray beard and I weary him
0:14:57.750,0:15:04.440 now wherefore stop now me so if you ever
0:15:02.520,0:15:06.899 want to memorize that poem
0:15:04.440,0:15:09.050 it fits perfectly for some reason to
0:15:06.899,0:15:12.000 Gilligan's Island which escapes me a
0:15:09.050,0:15:15.540 brief question given how busy you are
0:15:12.000,0:15:17.520 what time at Pierre Pacific so what time
0:15:15.540,0:15:20.430 are you frequently here because there
0:15:17.520,0:15:23.970 I'd love to talk more about the EEA with
0:15:20.430,0:15:27.800 you as well have an interesting I'm
0:15:23.970,0:15:33.270 trying to manifest randomly and it will
0:15:27.800,0:15:37.380 I think that it's it's supposed to be a
0:15:33.270,0:15:40.850 grab-bag it's awesome it's supposed to
0:15:37.380,0:15:42.750 be that you don't catch all of them and
0:15:40.850,0:15:45.120 just to the extent that there's any
0:15:42.750,0:15:49.280 design in it I mean right now I'm
0:15:45.120,0:15:53.950 investing hoping that I can pull back
0:15:49.280,0:15:53.950 once we get the culture kind of underway
0:15:54.310,0:16:00.050 if everybody gets a little bit of it but
0:15:57.050,0:16:02.060 nobody gets too much of it and people
0:16:00.050,0:16:04.250 can sort of say okay well this was the
0:16:02.060,0:16:07.580 intention
0:16:04.250,0:16:09.260 then my hope is is that the culture will
0:16:07.580,0:16:13.380 be
0:16:09.260,0:16:15.060 resident everywhere and people will say
0:16:13.380,0:16:16.530 I well I wasn't on that call what
0:16:15.060,0:16:18.350 happened somebody else will say I think
0:16:16.530,0:16:21.710 I understand it
0:16:18.350,0:16:24.800 and by the way you know just I want to
0:16:21.710,0:16:29.140 point out there will come days just as
0:16:24.800,0:16:31.910 just happened with linguistics where
0:16:29.140,0:16:33.260 somebody will say just as we were
0:16:31.910,0:16:35.630 talking about with like the Chomsky's
0:16:33.260,0:16:38.090 universal grammar and critiques thereof
0:16:35.630,0:16:41.480 I'm not immediately up on that I'm not
0:16:38.090,0:16:43.580 you know I came not falling I feel like
0:16:41.480,0:16:46.040 I'm I'm the the non mathematical
0:16:43.580,0:16:47.300 language guy odd nah I'm here don't know
0:16:46.040,0:16:50.120 but it's not that it's just a question
0:16:47.300,0:16:52.730 that people start to expect your heart
0:16:50.120,0:16:54.620 take on everything and you know it's
0:16:52.730,0:16:57.400 impossible what I was about to get to is
0:16:54.620,0:17:00.680 we will get 2 points with geometry
0:16:57.400,0:17:02.330 anthropology where somebody will say you
0:17:00.680,0:17:04.610 know Eric when you're transgressing the
0:17:02.330,0:17:07.670 churn be a representative of the second
0:17:04.610,0:17:09.470 part dragon class you know is there a
0:17:07.670,0:17:11.300 dependence on the vile curvature in the
0:17:09.470,0:17:14.150 case that the vile curvature splits in
0:17:11.300,0:17:16.850 dimension 4 under the star operator and
0:17:14.150,0:17:18.310 I'll say ah you know remember somebody
0:17:16.850,0:17:22.580 also say actually I happen to know that
0:17:18.310,0:17:24.650 so I'm looking forward to disappointing
0:17:22.580,0:17:26.960 you know that it will be coming and it
0:17:24.650,0:17:28.760 will become more frequent as the
0:17:26.960,0:17:31.370 capacity of the community gets a lot
0:17:28.760,0:17:33.410 higher a final statement uh just put it
0:17:31.370,0:17:35.780 this way Chomsky never in his entire
0:17:33.410,0:17:37.670 life ever ever integrated illusionary
0:17:35.780,0:17:38.900 theory into human language I think that
0:17:37.670,0:17:41.060 statement itself to someone like you
0:17:38.900,0:17:43.490 should be an obvious error and thinking
0:17:41.060,0:17:45.290 right and so that's kind of what I'm
0:17:43.490,0:17:47.450 getting at with it oh I'm super
0:17:45.290,0:17:51.260 interested in that point you know I've
0:17:47.450,0:17:53.900 made another point which is that I think
0:17:51.260,0:17:57.680 that people don't appreciate that the
0:17:53.900,0:17:59.840 reason consciousness is so hard is that
0:17:57.680,0:18:02.390 there's probably a continuum of things
0:17:59.840,0:18:04.370 that are conscious right down to the
0:18:02.390,0:18:06.020 fact that you know some in some sense
0:18:04.370,0:18:08.480 that my gut which has a turret
0:18:06.020,0:18:11.950 tremendous amount of neurons in it is
0:18:08.480,0:18:15.770 probably proto conscious in some way and
0:18:11.950,0:18:17.900 my concern of course is that when you
0:18:15.770,0:18:20.630 say that humans have language and no
0:18:17.900,0:18:23.270 other species is you know known to have
0:18:20.630,0:18:26.570 language or something like that that's
0:18:23.270,0:18:28.310 almost certainly wrong it's probably the
0:18:26.570,0:18:30.860 part of the definition of the word
0:18:28.310,0:18:31.600 language which is killing us it's worse
0:18:30.860,0:18:34.150 than that
0:18:31.600,0:18:36.490 skee I believe he wants to find language
0:18:34.150,0:18:38.410 is essentially just a spandrel which is
0:18:36.490,0:18:41.650 as absurd given if it's an adaptive
0:18:38.410,0:18:44.110 fitness value you know so and I think
0:18:41.650,0:18:45.970 just briefly again whatever it does or
0:18:44.110,0:18:47.470 has done it's kind of overturned a lot
0:18:45.970,0:18:49.600 of that and more and more people myself
0:18:47.470,0:18:51.850 I used to be a Chomsky in that I used to
0:18:49.600,0:18:53.650 study linguistics moved away from that
0:18:51.850,0:18:55.150 because it was so absurd retrospectively
0:18:53.650,0:18:58.929 to have not even have an eeveelution my
0:18:55.150,0:19:01.080 context so does everybody know what he
0:18:58.929,0:19:04.419 meant by spandrel in terms of
0:19:01.080,0:19:07.679 evolutionary theory yeah I was just put
0:19:04.419,0:19:10.950 yeah you're talking about earlier okay
0:19:07.679,0:19:10.950 so I
0:19:11.470,0:19:19.680 I get very angry when people let that
0:19:15.549,0:19:23.880 music is just a spandrel you know I mean
0:19:19.680,0:19:27.870 it's very hard to even say even hard to
0:19:23.880,0:19:31.350 say whether spandrels the the problem
0:19:27.870,0:19:32.100 that I have with all of this is the very
0:19:31.350,0:19:36.360 often
0:19:32.100,0:19:39.030 somebody has to over cut off' on a point
0:19:36.360,0:19:42.200 and for a period of time it becomes
0:19:39.030,0:19:45.140 dogma as it
0:19:42.200,0:19:48.290 makes its way through our consciousness
0:19:45.140,0:19:51.020 and then it has to be overturned and the
0:19:48.290,0:19:52.790 person never really I don't know Chomsky
0:19:51.020,0:19:54.470 meant it as strongly or you know he's
0:19:52.790,0:19:59.620 forced into a position where he had to
0:19:54.470,0:20:04.370 codify exactly what the rallying cry was
0:19:59.620,0:20:07.280 but you know in general science proceeds
0:20:04.370,0:20:10.850 through over claims and the triumphalist
0:20:07.280,0:20:13.490 period is necessary to consolidate
0:20:10.850,0:20:16.550 that's something dramatic has happened
0:20:13.490,0:20:18.220 and then the over claim becomes the sort
0:20:16.550,0:20:20.990 of seed corn for the next revolution
0:20:18.220,0:20:23.690 yeah but as you often say you want to
0:20:20.990,0:20:26.410 talk about a field where there there's
0:20:23.690,0:20:29.330 so much orthodoxy and institutional bias
0:20:26.410,0:20:30.290 the theoretical linguistics I was you
0:20:29.330,0:20:32.810 know I'm not anymore
0:20:30.290,0:20:35.030 for years no but not but I mean if you
0:20:32.810,0:20:36.950 were to suggest anything contrary to
0:20:35.030,0:20:38.930 Chomsky and doctrine you would be
0:20:36.950,0:20:42.320 crucified in fact Dan Everett the
0:20:38.930,0:20:46.630 scholar has been um he's looked as a
0:20:42.320,0:20:49.070 kook and he's odd because he thinks that
0:20:46.630,0:20:51.110 language has you wish for an adaptive
0:20:49.070,0:20:53.690 value and a cultural application it's
0:20:51.110,0:20:57.920 not just a computer system in your mind
0:20:53.690,0:21:00.290 and things like that and yeah I can tell
0:20:57.920,0:21:01.970 you someone who had to study syntax that
0:21:00.290,0:21:03.560 they they just spooned like if you if
0:21:01.970,0:21:05.870 you disagree but this had alternative
0:21:03.560,0:21:08.330 ideas you're just round and everything
0:21:05.870,0:21:10.940 had to conform to the Chomsky and you
0:21:08.330,0:21:12.500 may be the fact that linguistics is such
0:21:10.940,0:21:14.330 an obscure field to so many people
0:21:12.500,0:21:16.460 really allowed for this type of
0:21:14.330,0:21:17.930 orthodoxy to take a foothold that you
0:21:16.460,0:21:19.970 just wouldn't see in other fields that
0:21:17.930,0:21:22.650 are I wouldn't you say more accessible
0:21:19.970,0:21:25.600 but better known if you know what I mean
0:21:22.650,0:21:28.000 well as somebody who's challenged I mean
0:21:25.600,0:21:30.670 I've gotten was the first about string
0:21:28.000,0:21:32.800 theory and I had a very difficult
0:21:30.670,0:21:34.600 interaction with Graham on the program
0:21:32.800,0:21:36.040 the other night yeah I'm aware
0:21:34.600,0:21:38.800 couldn't follow it by the way cuz I'm
0:21:36.040,0:21:41.320 going to get birthing always thank you I
0:21:38.800,0:21:43.240 haven't released that so you know sorry
0:21:41.320,0:21:47.050 sorry it was it no then I'm confusing
0:21:43.240,0:21:48.910 him you know the inter gentleman who you
0:21:47.050,0:21:51.700 were disagreeing with him are you were
0:21:48.910,0:21:53.650 agreeing about disagreeing with am i
0:21:51.700,0:21:55.960 confusing him someone else Garrett Lisi
0:21:53.650,0:21:58.060 and I had some disagreements about his
0:21:55.960,0:22:00.130 theory but Garrett is not a string first
0:21:58.060,0:22:01.900 he's an anti-shock there so oh and I
0:22:00.130,0:22:03.670 would say Penrose is an anti string
0:22:01.900,0:22:06.640 person I think when I have Graham for
0:22:03.670,0:22:08.920 mellow he's not a string person but he's
0:22:06.640,0:22:14.020 friendly with the top group he's sort of
0:22:08.920,0:22:15.360 there chronicling the community and he's
0:22:14.020,0:22:17.860 he's sort of a part of the establishment
0:22:15.360,0:22:20.190 there's the string people talk to him
0:22:17.860,0:22:22.420 because they feel that they're getting a
0:22:20.190,0:22:24.640 knowledgeable and some other gear from
0:22:22.420,0:22:27.160 their perspective but when I started
0:22:24.640,0:22:29.380 talking to him I would hear him say
0:22:27.160,0:22:32.710 thing narratives that I very much
0:22:29.380,0:22:35.320 associated with particular people down
0:22:32.710,0:22:38.170 to the verbal tics and phraseology so
0:22:35.320,0:22:39.910 you know you feel that the chronicler is
0:22:38.170,0:22:41.290 becoming a pass-through and you're
0:22:39.910,0:22:45.250 actually listening to other voices
0:22:41.290,0:22:47.800 through the mouths of their earlier
0:22:45.250,0:22:49.570 interlocutor and then you have to say
0:22:47.800,0:22:52.270 are you are you really saying that you
0:22:49.570,0:22:53.830 believe these things or did you were you
0:22:52.270,0:22:57.550 told these things were you in a position
0:22:53.830,0:23:00.280 to evaluate these things it gets very
0:22:57.550,0:23:02.560 painful and the part of the part of the
0:23:00.280,0:23:04.630 problem that I'm having this is that I
0:23:02.560,0:23:06.490 would I would like to think that in
0:23:04.630,0:23:08.590 these chats you're getting to see who I
0:23:06.490,0:23:11.740 really am more than anything else that
0:23:08.590,0:23:14.650 I'm not highly disagreeable but if
0:23:11.740,0:23:17.320 somebody came into the chat and said he
0:23:14.650,0:23:20.170 you know well Erik is you very well know
0:23:17.320,0:23:24.180 you know if that was to be keeping of a
0:23:20.170,0:23:26.770 sudden the standard model is the supreme
0:23:24.180,0:23:29.200 example of the physical theory having a
0:23:26.770,0:23:32.920 high agreement was experiment that would
0:23:29.200,0:23:34.840 cause me to become a raging dick and I
0:23:32.920,0:23:35.830 would start saying you're talking about
0:23:34.840,0:23:38.350 the
0:23:35.830,0:23:41.500 most agree with the magnetic moment of
0:23:38.350,0:23:43.690 the electron to eleven decimal places in
0:23:41.500,0:23:45.669 quantum electrodynamics but that's not
0:23:43.690,0:23:48.720 true for this and that in QCD and you
0:23:45.669,0:23:51.340 know it you know now why am I suddenly
0:23:48.720,0:23:53.500 agitated why am i why am i becoming so
0:23:51.340,0:23:57.720 disagreeable it's because the argument
0:23:53.500,0:24:02.169 is being absorbed into the frame and I
0:23:57.720,0:24:05.740 think it's very worthwhile to watch and
0:24:02.169,0:24:09.429 monitor ourselves as we hear the
0:24:05.740,0:24:12.690 argument either advanced as an argument
0:24:09.429,0:24:14.820 or advanced as a frame
0:24:12.690,0:24:18.710 and when something has advanced as a
0:24:14.820,0:24:18.710 frame which is like for example
0:24:19.720,0:24:24.070 we cannot discuss anything to do with
0:24:22.059,0:24:26.080 intelligent design because the words
0:24:24.070,0:24:26.880 intelligent and design can not go next
0:24:26.080,0:24:28.780 to each other
0:24:26.880,0:24:30.730 well you understand what they're trying
0:24:28.780,0:24:32.830 to do they're trying to keep Jesus out
0:24:30.730,0:24:34.450 of evolutionary theory that's a noble
0:24:32.830,0:24:37.030 thing to do I don't think Jesus should
0:24:34.450,0:24:41.650 be an evolutionary theory on the other
0:24:37.030,0:24:44.710 hand because species have perception and
0:24:41.650,0:24:48.130 and cognition and try to select the best
0:24:44.710,0:24:49.690 mate it is also the case clearly that
0:24:48.130,0:24:51.940 when you can perceive your mating
0:24:49.690,0:24:55.470 opportunities and choose between them
0:24:51.940,0:24:59.890 you are engaging endogenously and in in
0:24:55.470,0:25:02.440 intelligent design now
0:24:59.890,0:25:04.390 that creates a very funny cognitive
0:25:02.440,0:25:07.270 problem because any evolutionary
0:25:04.390,0:25:10.390 theorist is supposed to recoil it and
0:25:07.270,0:25:11.800 say several prayers to where ward off
0:25:10.390,0:25:16.870 the devil if the words intelligent
0:25:11.800,0:25:19.270 design ever become adjacent now that
0:25:16.870,0:25:20.920 that you know that duplicates the terror
0:25:19.270,0:25:22.330 that you might have of contradicting
0:25:20.920,0:25:23.800 Chomsky and somebody would say well
0:25:22.330,0:25:26.890 surely you're not contradicting the
0:25:23.800,0:25:29.620 central dogma level of like molecular
0:25:26.890,0:25:34.190 biology that protein can't feed
0:25:29.620,0:25:35.840 information back into nucleic acid
0:25:34.190,0:25:38.299 my point to that would be well that's
0:25:35.840,0:25:40.490 very interesting why don't we just
0:25:38.299,0:25:44.120 entertain that to see whether or not it
0:25:40.490,0:25:46.700 creates a discomfort in you given that
0:25:44.120,0:25:49.190 no harm will actually occur
0:25:46.700,0:25:52.900 why why don't we just hypothesize that
0:25:49.190,0:25:55.850 like let's pretend that Jesus is really
0:25:52.900,0:25:58.040 active in evolutionary theory you'll see
0:25:55.850,0:26:01.070 that people just their physical
0:25:58.040,0:26:06.820 discomfort is enormous and if I can give
0:26:01.070,0:26:09.920 an analogy there is a toilet in the
0:26:06.820,0:26:12.670 Exploratorium in San Francisco or the
0:26:09.920,0:26:15.260 Exploratorium is a science museum and
0:26:12.670,0:26:17.570 the toilet is next to a water fountain
0:26:15.260,0:26:21.620 and somehow they put a water fountain in
0:26:17.570,0:26:23.930 the toilet and the water is perfectly
0:26:21.620,0:26:26.450 clean the question is will you drink
0:26:23.930,0:26:28.670 from the water fountain that is inside a
0:26:26.450,0:26:32.210 perfectly new toilet that's never been
0:26:28.670,0:26:35.810 used as a toilet as easily as you'll
0:26:32.210,0:26:38.810 drink from a water now you're encoding
0:26:35.810,0:26:40.360 disgust at the idea of drinking from a
0:26:38.810,0:26:43.120 toilet
0:26:40.360,0:26:45.580 but the point is that that's a primitive
0:26:43.120,0:26:47.500 not a prefrontal thing it's not
0:26:45.580,0:26:50.320 necessarily a bad thing that you should
0:26:47.500,0:26:52.269 feel disgust but you can at least notice
0:26:50.320,0:26:54.100 that the thing that is telling you not
0:26:52.269,0:26:56.919 to drink from this the very safe
0:26:54.100,0:27:00.730 drinking fountain put into a toilet is
0:26:56.919,0:27:02.790 that it was a heuristic that hardened
0:27:00.730,0:27:05.520 into dog
0:27:02.790,0:27:08.870 and I highly encourage people to both
0:27:05.520,0:27:11.890 respect those heuristics that cause us
0:27:08.870,0:27:14.830 to have discussed
0:27:11.890,0:27:16.090 and to be able to question them if
0:27:14.830,0:27:18.010 you're really going to be the
0:27:16.090,0:27:20.440 intellectual elite you know this is a
0:27:18.010,0:27:25.030 source of profit if you can entertain an
0:27:20.440,0:27:26.830 idea that others cannot without undoing
0:27:25.030,0:27:28.450 the hard work that your brain has put
0:27:26.830,0:27:30.580 into keeping you safe
0:27:28.450,0:27:33.130 by having these heuristics be quite
0:27:30.580,0:27:35.050 powerful you will be in a much better
0:27:33.130,0:27:37.060 position to go back and forth between
0:27:35.050,0:27:40.380 being a regular human being who never
0:27:37.060,0:27:42.930 drinks from a toilet and being
0:27:40.380,0:27:45.520 intellectually liberated and free in
0:27:42.930,0:27:48.750 that you can conceive of the idea that
0:27:45.520,0:27:48.750 one should drink from a toilet
0:27:52.539,0:27:59.409 and with that notion of drinking from
0:27:56.229,0:28:03.009 toilets the sleepy man who is hoping to
0:27:59.409,0:28:06.940 reach Europe Asia and Oceania or in
0:28:03.009,0:28:09.269 Africa must go to sleep thank you guys
0:28:06.940,0:28:12.419 for hanging out and keeping me company
0:28:09.269,0:28:12.419 thank you